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You are right, Neil

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mercedesman1981, Aug 1, 2007.

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  1. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Neil,

    I have been concerned about my Browning XT under-barrel POI being offset about 1.5 inches to the left.

    I thought I might be canting the gun, so I used a level to make sure I wasn't.

    I found the double bead sight alignment to be critical as well as keeping the gun level. I may be an expert bullseye pistol shooter, but precision shotgun is another kettle of fish. Thanks so much for your advice.

    I think I tend to shoot to the left for the under barrel. I am amazed at how sensitive sight alignment is in order to hit with the bottom barrel. I will have to do more work with this gun to try to figure out how I am going to work with it.

    Is it advisable to use a more open choke on the bottom barrel and a tighter choke for the upper? I am curious to find out what others do and will post pictures of what I shot tonight when I figure out how to do that in the forum.

    Mike
     
  2. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Mike, and you are right too - this POI testing, if you want to get it right, requires a whole lot more effort than most are willing to put into it, though, of course, it should be "job 1."

    That's why I go on and on about taking lots of shots - a box isn't too many by any means - and going back a couple of times to get new data and rethink technique and care and all that.

    When I read "I have my gun set up to 120% high" I just automatically assume the writer has no idea whatever. Maybe a couple of offhand shots, maybe "testing from three" maybe, and most likely, just typing, but why could anyone who knew the gun shot 18 inches high not just write that?

    I'll be everyone thinks that a gun shooting 3 inches high at target distance, compared to totally flat, would lead to higher scores (or use flat and three inches low if you wish). So why don't they worry about horizontal deviation?

    You and Mac and a few others are my best references. This work is worth doing. It's hard works and you have to do it over and over again before you know for sure. But, eventually, you will know and then you are ready for the next step, if necessary.

    Neil
     
  4. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Neil, thanks for the encouragement. I am after consistent results and not afraid to do the homework to attain such. I consider it paying attention to detail and learning how your gun shoots. I started with an 1100 and went to an O/U - XT -just because I like them and my scores plummeted because they shoot so differently. I am also just starting out with this game so there is much to learn. Thank you for your perspective. ZZT too, it sounds like he is in the gun industry and likes to shoot trap too. I was thinking along BLUETIC's lines wondering "how close is close?" when he indicated the deviation was way too much and I needed to figure out why.

    As far as precision shotgun shooting, at distance I need all the help I can get so a 4 1/2" deviation in the pattern is more than enough to keep me from scoring well. My ultimate goal is to get both barrels to shoot straight every time I mount the gun and I believe this will lead to consistent results/scores.

    I am surprised with how easy it is to throw off the POI by slightly misaligning the sight beads or canting the gun. I think at this stage, I need to practice mounting the gun so that it is straight and not canted and the beads are aligned properly with and without wearing a jacket as I'm sure that will things off too. I may have to install an adjustable butt pad to fit my style, but that is what I am trying to prove. I like the new buttpad idea over unsoldering the barrels and having them re-aligned, especially if I am the cause of the problem!!

    I have read about using chokes and how going to a more open choke will not necessarily improve scores. I can see a valid reason for using a more open choke on the under barrel to help offset canting, is that necessarily the way to go though? I think ZZT says he uses a modified in the bottom and an IM for the top.

    On the other hand too, I am presbyotic and wear reading glasses to clearly see the beads, making the targets a bit blurry. How do others deal with this since it is the target which needs to be focused on? I use 1.25X glasses, so it isn't too much of a problem at the moment. I guess the real question is, should the target be fuzzy and the sights clear or should the sights be fuzzy and the target clear?

    Thanks again for the replies,

    Mike
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Mike, I went thru the same issues, I went thru 3 gun changes from 03/06 until 01/07 when I perchased my XT. My scores rollercoastered. when I got My XT in 01/07 my scores tanked,,,, very frustrated. I then found TS.com Neils 13yard guide and about 100 shells. got me shooting well. Well enough to win a few times so far this year. Along with Massachusetts D class. I will be needing a adjustable recoil pad as I am lefty a lefty and this a bit of Toe out on the gun. A new recoil pad shaved down has helped enough until winter comes and I can get the stock sent out. I had the riffle guys at my club help me out. Of corse they razzed me a bit becouse im shooting bird shot"how acurate do ya need to be". They help big time. Gun vise they use to scope their guns keeps everything true. Putting the shots on paper also pointed out some poor chokes I have. Yes I did find 2 chokes that just completly shot different POI. Right now I use a briely spectrum IM and a browning Xtra full turkey choke. The gun changes where as follows... 870 exspress, browning gold, used club gun 870 Comp. For remainder of 06 league while deciding and trying every gun i could, before deciding on XT.
     
  6. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    <center>
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    </center> After getting all things squared, I need to adjust for hieght. My wife deleted most of my pics from my pattern testing but i did find these. the lower shooting pic was where the comb was adjusted for a fig8 bead set up. Then after raise of comb on other pic. Thing I fudged up on. Kept raiseing comb and still aligning beads fig8, dah. Which reminds me. When you begin to get frustrated go home.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mac. that's OK for singles and short-yardage handicap. but . . .

    ...though it may be marked "full" it shoots more like modified if that's a measured 15 yards.

    Neil
     
  8. Smiley

    Smiley Member

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    If you cant your gun then it begs the question how do side by side shotgun shooters cope.As for POI it would seem to me that the closer the bead is to touching the clay as a sight plane then the less room for error exists,after all does the conscious brain pull the trigger or does the subconscious and your periferal sight aline the sight plane and pull/release the trigger whilst you are consciously tracking the clay.After all it is the same as trying to hit a ball, you keep your eye on the ball not what you are hitting it with.
    Smiley
     
  9. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Neil, that is my browning factory invp full flush mount choke. The 15 yard is so becouse of where the pattern boards are at club. I have to use riffle range for closer. At this point in my testing I was only concerned with getting the shotcharge higher. I have now a briely spectrum IM that is much better and so far good back to the 21y. Thats where im at now. I also have a xtra full turkey choke in top barrel. I do not use it much but it smokes targets at long range when i can get on them. This winter I will be getting some stock mods done. I then will do a revamp of pattern and choke testing. now that im better with camera and pc. I will log my results better.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You are doing the right thing, mac. Browning chokes, as many have noted here, are nothing to write home about.

    Neil
     
  11. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    by all means you must pattern you trap guns. i just did that and my kolar unsingle shoots the center of the pattern 18 inches high dead center from reference point. About 110 % high. My o/u barrel shoots 70/30 bottom barrel ans dead on top barrel. All tested at 32 yards. My proto-type kolar barrel with adjustable rib shot 4 to 5 inch low at 32 yards. This was due to the higher rib. i needed to move my comb up on this one to get same sight picture. Now i know were gun shoots.
     
  12. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Mike;

    Time to open the can of worms: Something you and others often fail to consider when patterning is that even exhaustive patterning, may yield results that apply to shooting targets ONLY when aiming the gun like a rifle.

    Now come the worms: Most assume the pattern will go in the same direction when shooting offhand at moving targets as it did when patterning. This is often a false assumption.

    Where the pattern goes depends on two things, the rib's change in height front to back and the eye's position relative to the rib when shots are fired.

    Just because your eye in the right position when the gun is mounted, does not mean that it will remain there during swings. For its alignment with the rib to remain there, the gun must fit you and you must be using the correct shooting form, particularly the correct gun mount and body posture.

    When this cannot be done, the head, to put it loosely, can flap around on the end of the neck during swings. This will move your eye's position relative to the rib and the pattern will move with it, all without your being aware of it.

    An example of this can be suffered by right-handed shooters on station 5. When some shooters swing to extreme rights often powering the swing with their forward hand rather than with body rotation, the comb often comes away from their cheeks. When this happens, their head (and eye) moves to the left relative to the rib. Like moving the sight of a rifle to the left, this causes patterns to move to the left, behind left-to-right targets.

    The sight picture could have been perfect but the target was still lost. Why? Because their heads moved on the stock. And so it is with all shooting when guns do not fit and/or shooting forms are flawed.

    Shooters do not realize that their heads move during swings. They are focused on the targets, not their ribs. Even an observer would find it virtually impossible to notice head-movement during swings. Head-raising, another case of head movement is also difficult for an observer to notice.

    All a shooter can do is to learn what the correct shooting form is and fit his gun to that form and his particular size and shape. The correct shooting form (gun mount, body posture and stance) for trap shooting has developed over many years. It is used by virtually all the top shooters because it results in the best scores.

    So... patterning is important but only when it reflects the same results as those experienced when shooting moving targets. To shoot moving targets accurately, the eye must remain in the same place (relative to the rib) as it was when the gun was patterned.

    As an aside, gun-canting can be caused by a stock with too Little pitch as well as one with no or too little cast at the toe.

    Rollin
     
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