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yet another Dysinger thread

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, Aug 23, 2012.

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  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    On the last of LongShort's interminable explorations into the depths to which a miserable quarter-mind can descend, Dave Berlet raised a pretty interesting and germane point, and is pretty reflective of the BD-acolyte thought.

    ------------------

    @deaveberlet: <i>... A question that I have is would you please point out to me where Mr. Dysinger has posted anything on this site that is not the truth?</i>

    ------------------

    Well, yeah. Brad made a couple of categorical, purposeful misstatements abt and to Matt (grntitan) during the Spring, but when Brad is on a roll, his ears don't work so good, but I don't think that is what you meant to ask, either.

    I know Brad, and like him and appreciate his passion, and we talk occasionally and I tell him he is full of shit sometimes, and that he is brilliant sometimes, and both are absolutely correct.

    Camus said: "There is no 'truth', only 'truths.' and what Brad tells is his version of the truth. There are other versions of 'the truth' equally supported by the same facts Brad relies on.

    What makes Brad so popular with the True Church of Vandalia crowd, so completely captures it's angst, betrayal is not his 'truth' nor logic nor command of facts: it is his passion and his willingness to speak loudly.

    Factually (and for a number of valid, observable, testable, repeatable reasons) trapshooting has been dying for a number of years, and was even well before Dayton threw our asses out.

    In sad point of fact, all Brad is doing with his good ideas and well-learned experiences is stirring the pot and promoting anger and discord.

    Unless/Until Brad (or some less polarizing figure who agrees with, and listens to him) joins the system and builds alliances, logrolls, politics, trades ... change from WITHIN the system, any 'truth' or falsity Brad spews (and his acolytes applaud, and yeah, Andy I'm pointing at you, and LongShorts) it is just background noise.

    To Brad's credit (and to LongShort's and other's everloving shame for living two generations ago) Brad has put many of his ideas in at OSTA & CC, and they are pretty sensible, I think. I'd like to see more of them planted, and more broadly, but even Brad knows the Church of Vandalia was so THEN ... and this is NOW.

    'The money is gone, and it will not be coming back.' is an objective reality, fact, truth and metaphysical certainty. ATA today recognizes that, and even Brad's 'Brand-new, Overhauled, New-Old Vandalia v.2.0 ATA' has to deal with facts-on-the-ground.

    Being the ATA just now is like being the country dog in the city: if you stand still, you get raped, if you try to run, your ass gets bit.

    Brad has a number of good ideas, but until they get into the system, they are just sweet, salty fast food served for communion at a long-dead church.

    my 2¢

    Bob
     
  2. Butler

    Butler TS Member

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    very well stated
     
  3. mallard2

    mallard2 Active Member

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    Eloquent is not often a word that comes to mind with posts on this site, but,

    Goat, this is eloquent. Well said.
     
  4. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Can't wait for the Dr's response.
     
  5. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Where the longshort at? Must be meeting with his cabinet for a rebuttal.
     
  6. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    @32/90: <i>Can't wait for the Dr's response.</i>

    Do you mean the illiterate at 5th-grade reading-level, math -challenged (at any level), new majiic gun-per-week. brick-breaking. 'elect me king of the ATA and i'll fix things overnight - but YOU do all the work as *EYE* am the idea man. and king.', go nowhere/know everything ... LongShort? THAT LongShort, The self-defining parody? Gary Bryant, ex-Air Conditioner repair dood? Him?

    Nah, I doubt he'll post, but if he does, then we can talk abt his (lacking) 'Proof of Concept' ~70s Vintage Shoot for the Buick~ shoot?

    Then we can see his flinging red herring techniques, straw-man stuffing video, hand-waves and goal-post moves.

    I'd be more interested in hearing Berlet's thoughts, Dysinger's after this weekend, Carl Chadwell's, Tom Strunk's ... Neil Winston's, V-10's ... you know, people who have actually given some thought to the matters.

    Bob
     
  7. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    AH!! An olive branch?
     
  8. Mapper

    Mapper Member

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    Goatskin, while I agree with everything you said, we should keep in mind that Thomas Paine was a pretty big influence in the American Revolution and he was a firebrand too. Maybe we need the passion to kick start things and calmer personalities to forment policy.
     
  9. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Mapper, we don't disagree, except to note that Tom Paine was looking to the future, and not looking backwards and tearfully whimpering while brandishing a tarnished, faded, chipped made-in-China Talisman of a wheels-down muddy USAIR jet while tearfully incanting the magic phrase, 'Vandalia. O sweet Vandalia. Poor innocent Vandalia. Poor Me.'

    My guess is that if there ever IS a substantial change of direction in ATA, Brad will be the intellectual father, but not if he is riding at the head of the Vandalia slackers who only listen to one of of three things (tops) Brad actually said. IF change is going to happen, it must happen from within the ATA.

    Had - as many advisors recommended to G-III - the Stamp Tax been withdrawn, A provincial commissioner invited to Parlaiment, and some of the more egregious excesses of the Mercantile system reined in ... we would still be Englishmen and Top Paine would be a footnote.

    That said: MOST of the pew-polishers in the amen corner of the old church are a Cargo Cult. They have an 'Underpants Gnome' business mentality, and I have seen little evidence of recognizing three overwhelming, immutable facts-on-the-ground, <i>INCLUDING</i> from Brad:

    - Sparta is NOT the ATA.

    - Vandalia is gone. Forever.

    - The money is gone. Forever.

    Grousing/Musing abt whether Ohio/Pennsylvania did anything, much less *everything* to keep The Grand in e.Ohio is fruitless. Dissing Sparta is a waste of O2. What the ATA should have done, or shouldn't have done when Dayton fired us (and 'if they had just listened to me...') is a waste of verbs.

    Any 'solution' that Brad (and the Cargo Chorus) may have that does not acknowledge, address and speak in clear detail to the above three bullets is a fraud and Charlie Foxtrot.

    Bob
     
  10. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    So you're basically saying a lot of damage has been done, but for the betterment of the sport we have to look toward the future, and a guy like Dysinger is needed to save the ATA - the George Washington of trapshooting . . .

    and if he fails, he can be drawn and quartered!
     
  11. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    <i>So you're basically saying a lot of damage has been done, but for the betterment of the sport we have to look toward the future, and a guy like Dysinger is needed to save the ATA - the George Washington of trapshooting . . .</i>

    Nah. Not what I'm saying at all - or I don't think so, anyhow. I think ATA has been pretty responsive to what it's members want, and overall are pretty happy with THEIR ATA.

    >> IF << there will be changes, the most likely sources would be Brad following Kiner's model. Get INSIDE and work.

    Revolutionary leaders are always the first ones stood against the wall, don'cha'know?

    Benchrest trap has a serious demographics problem, and about all that can be done for ATA is to prolong and ease the end. The True Believers are the true believers, and they have their totems, spells, incantations ...

    What Berlet said took a couple of days to soak in. Most of what is said abt how evil the ATA comes from the True Church of Vandalia, and they are self-delusional and just grumpy. Berlet, whose thoughts are considered, moderated and are, at least, worthy of respect.

    Most of pissers, moaners and destroyers are ... Cargo Cult, incapable or unwilling to take off their rose-tinted shooting glasses.

    Bob
     
  12. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Like longer yardage might help too.

    GneJ
     
  13. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Longer Yardage is not the answer and it will not work, it is an unneeded expense to all gun clubs.

    It is relizing the soft targets that are being thrown and on top of that the faster shells.

    Simply go to the 45 degree target angle as a minimum and the original 3 Dram 1200 ft per second shell.

    You saw what happened when they threw the 30 yard targets at the Ohio State Challenge, I broke 21 out of 25 using Winchester Super Handicaps, all the Top Shooters can do better than that. It won't and will not work with the rules as they are now.

    Put Competetion back into the game, throw serious targets at serious angles and use the shell standards as they used to be, absolutely no additional costs involved for the ATA or the Shooters.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  14. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Roger, you reinforced exactly my point - perhaps by accident - some want change, some are happy with the current direction.

    Were those who were trying to help our sport that were 'shouted down' standing outside yelling, or were they delegates and EC? It matters. A lot.

    <i>Maybe going back to the basics of the sport as they were in its hayday might work.</i>

    I have encouraged the loudest, longest pisser-and-moaner, most mindlest acolyte in the Olde Kirk on TS.com, LongShorts to organize and throw a 'Heyday' shoot, and maybe PROVE that there is an under-estimated, overlooked, pent-up demand for Old-Style shooting. :: crickets ::

    I'm not sure the expansion of trophies and trinkets has had a lowering effect on numbers, but I have no data. The BoD and EC thought it was a good idea, however. Do you have any idea what their thoughts were?

    @GneJ: <i>Like longer yardage might help too.</i>

    How so? It seems that more shooters are over- rather than under-handicapped, and looking at winner's yardages in all the major shoots, there are a lot of small-dogs in the top places.

    The back fence sitters are SUPPOSED to win more than the rest of the pack, combined. That is a feature, not a bug.

    If you want to increase score distribution and slightly weight Caps for somewhat shorter yardages, there are a couple of easier and cheaper ways to do that, rather than pour concrete, I think.

    Bob
     
  15. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    LS ...

    first, a 1200fps bullet is impossible to regulate, and it is highly doubtful it would make a 1/10 of a bird difference to the back-fence averages. so ... why volunteer for more problems and more regulations and more challenges?

    Reducing the poundage of lead you can throw is easily testable, and almost surely would affect averages.

    second, 45º angle targets are completely legal and fully allowed in the regs currently.

    When can we expect the program and details of your Proof of Concept shoot? 'Shoot for a Buick' is it?

    Bob
     
  16. Mapper

    Mapper Member

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    Goatskin, I confess to having liked and miss Vandalia. I also liked my 47 Ford convertible and yeah I was one of the Ohio guys. The Ford and Vandalia are gone and now I live in Michigan. I don't know what's needed to fix the ATA. It seems to me we should find some way to reduce the current number of perfect scores. It is getting like skeet, everyone breaks 100 and then the shootoff starts. 3 angle, less shot, bag of green apples, I don't know. Having said that, I don't think that will fix the problem. However, I have known Dave and Brad for a long time. They might figure out something. Obviously, the economy is in the tank right now but I think the problem is deeper than that. Maybe it is the other entertainment options nowadays. I just don't know.
     
  17. trapshooteraa27aa

    trapshooteraa27aa Well-Known Member

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    Once again Dr Longblow You proved nothing. You are no example to anything that the ata needs to do because of something you THINK you have done. As usual your just a joke and just wish you could come to grip with that....please
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Trapshooteraa27aa: Are you really that good to have that sign on name? Or is it an ego thing for you?

    Being serious what year did you start shooting ATA Targets?

    I started in 1968 Brad started in approx 1973, Leo started in 1968 also, we and a lot of others teethed on 3 hole 1200 fps shells and hand pulled targets,
    I am not bragging but I was an early bird and long standing 27 yard shooter and was in AA singles, I did not shoot many singles, I did not and do not care for care for them.
    I loved and still love handicap.

    I am 71 years old now, Trapshooteraa27aa how old are you.

    I think I shoot pretty good for an Old Man.

    Another point GOATSKIN the 1200 fps shells are as easily tested as the lighter loads when you shoot new shells on Hdcp. Are you afraid to see what 3 dram shells can do?

    I am shooting 2 3/4 dram 1st shot 7.5s on buddy shoots, Darrell Dowler was at the buddy shoot last night, I believe he shoots 2 3/4 dram loads, he liked my line back up loads 1 3/16ths of #6s and 26 Grs of 800-X approx 1275 fps.

    But getting back to GOATSKIN and TRAPSHOOTERAA27AA This sport thrived on 1200 fps shells and 3 hole targets, then the PERFECTIONISTS got into office who could not shoot or handle or was told by the ELITE HaHa we need to make the targets easier/use faster shells/ and we will bring in the flocks.

    Itdid exactly the opposites we went from approx 44 Grand Slams in 1983 to how many do we have now I will guess it is approaching 400 thats approx 10 times
    as many in the last 24 years.

    The shooters that earned Grand Slams in the early years were the better shooters, in cluding Leo, Ray, Kay, Brad, Dan, Britt, Gene, Larry, and others that slip my mind.They are the .999 %Pure Gold Shooters. All you other guys to me are BRONZE Shooters when compared to Olympic ATA Shooters.

    Why not give a true 3 hole target and 3 dram 1200 fps max shells or less a try.
    That used to be the only shells you could get at the shell house. Give it a sincere effort for at least a year at all events. And see the results.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    BRAD DYSINGER did not start this thread, more hoopla from the stories and half truths of GOATSKIN, Goatskin is what the redskins covered their body with to sneak up on un-suspecting animals and people, it fits him.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  20. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    While I'm not in favor of any velocity limits I can't understand goat's claim that 1200 fps is "impossible to regulate" while the current 1280 can be regulated. Seems a bit illogical.
     
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