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Yardage Group Trophies

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by miketmx, Apr 5, 2008.

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  1. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    On the Short History thread Neil mentioned Yardage Group Trophies.

    "The 2008 Grand American will use yardage groups for trophies far more than in the past, "places" far less. Not everyone is going to like this, especially the shooter who finishes 10th and would have gotten a trophy last year but won't this year."

    At our State Shoot annual meeting last summer there was a heated discussion about yardage group trophies. Shooters wanted them but the conclusion was that the ATA provides the trophy package for Handicap Championship at the State Shoots and placement trophies are awarded instead of yardage group trophies.

    Two questions: 1) Will the ATA trophies for State Shoots include Yardage Group Trophies or Placement trophies ?? 2) If Yardage Group trophies are in the package, will a "Category" shooter be allowed to 'fall back' to a Category trophy if he/she loses a shootoff for Yardage Group ??
     
  2. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Mike


    We just completed our state shoot and the handicap trophies were 1st through 6th place.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I can answer only part of your questions. A category may fall back from shooting for a championship trophy, but not yardage group.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, I hope so. It depends on how effective we - that means I, you, and others who agree with us- will be in getting this done. Tournament Director Mike Hampton, President NW, and the EC have taken a plunge here to do something we are confident will improve not only the Grand, but Zone shoots, State shoots, and Satellite Grands as well. Once again, here's the argument:

    [​IMG]

    While there are members on the upper right that most of us will hardly ever beat, the "colors" are pretty well segregated. Blue huddles with blue, green with green. _That_ is the sort of "equalization" that our handicap system can be expected to make work. We we will have (in principle) "blue" trophies, "green" trophies and so on.

    We can't take the lower left - even the mid - of this graph and do anything to match its probability of a high score with those on the upper right. It can't be done. But to give the members of any definable sub-group - say "mid-yarders - a similar talent pool to shoot against, well, that's something we _can_ do and we are doing it at the Grand this year.

    Neil
     
  5. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    just my little opinion - I see solid rationale and a good change
     
  6. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I have sure noticed a trend at the shoots in our 'State' that in good weather the Handicap trophies are dominated by the long yardage shooters. At our State Shoot meeting last summer the whole yardage group trophy debate was instigated by the former PITA Delegate who pointed out that PITA has yardage group trophies.
     
  7. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Good move Neil. i believe it will help our sport and pull in more shooters. Yardage group trophies will bring in more money and keep more shooters than placement trophies. Someone asked me how about cost? One suggestion , offer those military type metals with ribbons. Gold , Bronze, Silver. for each yard shot in handicap events. My parents shot for them all there lives and i still have them in a nice shadow box. Not an expensive trophy but beautiful. If its good enough for the oylimpic's why not out sport? You might even think about HOA in yardage groups and lower classes but only at the state and grand. This should really pull in some shooters. Yes, its a wild idea but sometimes that what it takes to bring in the money and new membership. Think about how many short yarders win HOA or HAA at major shoots? Allmost none. Myself i am not competetive so i am very seriously considering giving up the sport but will continue to help the sport i love so much.. To many trips to the VA medical facility is taking a toll on me.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    There will be the medals you speak of, Earl, just as there were last year. Sorry to hear about your health problems and I wish you the best of luck.

    I do wonder how it's possible that there can be, over the last year or so, a thousand posts about what the ATA should do about handicap, and yet when the ATA "does something," so few seem to care.

    Neil
     
  9. jrb

    jrb Member

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    I think it's great for the yardage trophies. If you look at most of the shoot-offs for the grand..they were dominated by 27 yarders...the shooters who placed in most handicap events were 27 yarders.

    They are all great shooters and deserve their accolades but by providing an opportunity for others to compete will hopefully encourage more shooters that they have a chance. Times are going to be very tough on shooters this year with rising prices on just about everything. I feel like I have a little bit of a chance when competing with my own!

    J. R. Brock
     
  10. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    The topic of trophies (or lack thereof) has been a hot topic for some time now.

    I do not know "who" decides or "where" they come from, so I certainly cannot blame or point fingers. What I can say is this : Where I live (PA), we've seen the disappearance of yardage-group trophies in handicap events ; non-resident trophies replace OPEN trophies, which eliminates residents from this group of awards that used to be given to anyone who qualified - regardless of residency. I'm certain the goal is to attract more out-of-state participants to their tournaments, but it has been a slap in the face to PA shooters, nonetheless.

    We've also seen a reduction of trophies presented on days where attendance is projected to be lower, but never an increase on days where major events would indicate a larger-than-average cashiering take by the Association.

    If there is anyone "in the know" who could elaborate upon the rationale, I would be most happy to listen. It just seems to me that major tournament shooting within the ATA has become a "give us your money" proposition.
     
  11. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Trophies for yardage groups make sense because it does allow for those of similar skill levels to compete. Now, using the same rationale, add a Master Class for the top 27 yard shooters and you have a winner.
     
  12. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I'm a little bit tired, but I'll yell you that graph looks to me like just about every yardage group from 21 to 26 yards shoots about the same in caps. It's only the red that shows a significant difference. It points out clear differences in singles, but not in caps.

    Even the shortest yardage looks like the concentration is right in there with all of the others.

    I don't see this graph as supporting the switch to more yardage group trophies and less place trophies. It seems to me that it has been relatively recently (5 yrs) that I have seen more place trophies instead of yardage trophies, at least at the state and lower level. Sounds like that will just be going back the way it was.

    I like the place trophies better myself. I do understand that everyone has a different opinion, but that is mine.
     
  13. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line. Well it increase new shooters, will it hold older shooters, will it generate funds to ATA. I believe changes like this will. NEIL, Make sure you advertize the handicap changes in BOLD LETTERS. Last year at the grand not many people knew about the metals but were delited when they found out.
     
  14. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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  15. bas

    bas Member

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    I think going back to yardage group trophies would be very good, this would allow all shooters a better chance at a trophy. This year at our state shoot, the ATA Handicap trophies, or CH through 6th, were all won by 27 yard shooters execpt for 5th place,and that was won by a 23 yarder.
    For Non residents, we did it by yardage groups (3). However next year, I'm going to recommend that we add a 4th yardage group across the board, and this would be for 27 yarders only.
     
  16. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Neil,

    I think most of the calls for change have been to allow more people a shot at THE trophy. This change gives more people a shot at A trophy. I just don't think it's what most vocal shooters have asked for and this is the reason for a limited response.

    Tom
     
  17. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    Why do we even have a handicap event?? Jimmy Borum
     
  18. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Although I usually agree with Mr. Borum, this time I will side with Neil. The yardage trophy will be, in my opinion, good for the support. However that said the depth of the trophies last year seemed rediculous. Trophies for 1 through 3rd would be more than enough.

    As to Roger's comment about Vets. Sn. Vet. and other category shooters. Please understand they will still be eligible for yardage trophies. Maybe it will enlighten some of the die hards to accept reductions. That said, I know Roger, amount others, knows I am a Senior Veteran, and at least for the time being, (I's still here) proud of it. - Jim
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    870, yes they are about the same. That's the point.

    The median average for each group in 2007, considering those who shot 1000 handicap targets and so, in my view, have a shot at a good score.

    19-20 84.60

    21-22 86.92

    23-24 86.53

    25-26 86.81

    27 89.27

    The outliers are the 27 as you point out, but also the 19 and 20-yarders. The thing is, we _want_ to have groups which are about equal. We need to move 27 away because they are too good, and the short-yarders too because everyone else is too good. In that mid group it's true we could do it alphabetically to make three groups and get the about same result, but I think you will agree that "yardage" will have more support.

    Neil
     
  20. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    outstanding. Gold, Silver , Bronze with neck ribbon for each handicap yard shot plus sr vets, vets etc. WE are going the right direction. Thanks Neil
     
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