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Yardage and All-Americans.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Beau69, Aug 27, 2009.

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  1. Beau69

    Beau69 Active Member

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    Obviously, something isn't right with our handicap system. Once again, I agree, All-Americans are better than 'us' and I totally respect that. However, if you look at data, you'll find that AA shooters basically earn a punch almost every time that they shoot handicap. Whoever it was that said it earlier this week was right..they shoot well and have no further 'handicap' assessed on them. I break a good score and have to move back because of it.

    Just some interesting figures going on 'automatic' punches for this past season.

    Richard Marshall earned 39.5 yards and was punched 46 times in 64 events (72%)
    Leo Harrison earned 44.5 yards and was punched 48 times in 59 events (81%)
    Harlan Campbell earned 26.5 yards and was punched 28 times in 51 events (55%)
    Ray Stafford earned 22.5 yards and was punched 28 times in 68 events (41.1%)
    Debbie Ohye earned 8.0 yards and was punched 11 times in 56 events (20%)
    Zach Nannini earned 9.0 yards and was punched 10 times in 83 events (12%)


    Using the 'average joe' trapshooter as another example, (which is me), in the past 50 events, I've been punched 6 times, or approximately 10% of the time.

    I think what most of us realize is that a select few are the ones who skirt the handicap system. For the most part, that select few are the All-Americans. I still think something needs to be done to have a pro class or something along those lines because the data shows that something I'm going to do 1 out of 10 times at MOST, Leo is going to do 8 out of 10 times..everytime...Or that basically all Men All-American shooters get punched around half the time they shoot. In essence, it creates an unequal scenario. I say forget all the talk of concrete, lighter loads (I do think we should go back to 3 hole) and let the All-American shooters compete against themselves...because 9/10 I'm not even going to break a score that will get a punch, and if I do, I'll still be a bird or two behind....maybe.

    Interesting data though...I actually wonder if it could be 'looked up' to see how many yards Leo has been punched in his career? 1000? 2000?
     
  2. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Leo was likely punched enough yards in his lengthy career into the adjoining state!!
     
  3. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Whats bad is i got my first All American points(9) this year and a yardage reduction at the end of the year. LOL LOL. Its funny but true. I refused the reduction though.----Matt
     
  4. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    I'll tell you what - let's just kick them out of the ATA.

    How did they "skirt" the rules???

    Make Ricky shoot from the 66.5 yard marker.

    I guess Beau is the newest member of the "Let's whine about the Handicap club"

    Compete in your own yardage group.

    Don
     
  5. Beau69

    Beau69 Active Member

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    not whining Don just making a point for interests sake...handicap is usually all I shoot and I love it...I can't wait to make the 27 yd line someday
     
  6. gary0920

    gary0920 Member

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    Handicap is all about the money. The concept supports various larger purses than singles, because everyone is putting money in the same pot. That's the fun of it - chance to win someone else's money. Knowing that, it's the same few individuals taking that money out of the pot. If you put your money in, know that the odds of taking big dog money back out are about the same as winning the lotto. These individuals are great shooters, plain and simple. The best winning at anything is what America is all about.

    There is no handicap system in golf or tennis that would ever allow you to compete with Woods or Roddick, so why would anyone expect one in trap? And the shooters mentioned above, are the Tigers and Andys of trapshooting.

    So shoot well and often, and enjoy the sport, and know that 99.9% of us will never win the GAH. But it is fun to dream.

    Gary Rickard
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Handicaps in our game is a contest to see who can point more accurately more times by adding distance. Angles play a major role in that also, less angle, more precise points for those so gifted. More angle equals less precise pointing every time. Some guys love to win long distance matches even if there's no money involved also! Hap
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I am not at all surprised that the All Americans consistently shoot good scores. What I want to do is to also shoot good scores, but I am not willing to make the commitment (time and effort) that is required to consistently shoot at a higher level. I am not looking for a way to lower the scores of someone else, I want an easy way to raise my scores. I wounder if a new gun or a new hat would be the trick I need?

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Ron Burdick that is just typical of BIG DON he doesn't read the posts just intrerpets what he wants it to read, I think this is the pre-cursor to senility. Full of Brain Farts. Constipation of the brain and Diahrea of the keys.




    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    gary0920

    "There is no handicap system in golf or tennis that would ever allow you to compete with Woods or Roddick, so why would anyone expect one in trap?"

    I will give you an answer to this question just because I am sick of hearing a handicap in Golf.

    In Trap a perfect score is possible and within the reach of any shooter. In Golf a perfect score is not possible so you are handicapped on a system know as Par. Which as far as I can tell is a rating on what the governing body can set or change at anytime on any course for any reason.

    I would like to see Golf left out of the equation as it has no similarity to Trap.

    I also feel that some here need to understand that not everyone is motivated by shooting Trap for money. Just because they are does not mean everyone is.

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    I'd go with the new hat.
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Pat, the cheapest way is to do it is subtract a two bit aim?? :) Much cheaper than a new hat even? Hap
     
  13. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Firstly Beau you accused the AA as "skirting" the handicap system. They didn't skirt anything they played by the rules in place. Skirting the system is cheating.

    After how many threads about how bad the current system is you point out all the punches the AA's recieved and the point is?? The fact that they win all the time is a known. If Leo got punched ever time he would be on the 2030 yard line.

    Just beating a dead horse. Speaking of dead horses glad to see Dr. Knowitall, the chief idiotic thread guru is present.

    The constant complaining and bickering about the handicap system just gives the Anti's more crap to use against us and shooting. Let's see the grand has been over since the 15th, maybe you can keep kicking this issue until Dec.

    Don

    Beau I truly hope you make the 27 yard line. It's kind of a fun place to shoot from.
     
  14. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    A true handicap system penalizes performance such that anyone who has a good day has a chance to win. When someone like Leo averages 97, you do not have much of a chance at all.

    If you average 90, and there are a bunch of guys averaging 94+, playing the money is playing against the odds.

    It is OK to do so - I gamble at Vegas and expect to lose. I have to lose - or there would no no Vegas. Of course, we all hope to hit big one damn day.

    The handicap system is broken. It is a good system for most of us, as we sift out to the 90 average that becomes the norm at whatever yardage we end up at. But the good shooters on the 27 blow that 90 average out of water.

    Yes, the big dogs worked hard and it is our problem that we are not good enough yadda, yadda, yadda. That is all true - so what? When you shoot a 97 and do no make the shoot-off for 8th place it sucks. Does that sound motivating? Membership and shoot attendance is not falling only because of the economy.

    People have smartened up and more are shooting targets only. That trend will continue. The guys who shoot for money whine about the decline in purses. They blame the "cheap" (smart?) new crop of shooters who will not play the options.

    Bigdon, sometimes you make sense; but you are wrong if you think anyone suggests Ricky shoot from the 66.5 yard line. What is wrong, is that for every yardage group, there is a penalty for shooting a good score that is not accessed to the 27 yard shooter.

    One solution is to allow reductions at 93 or 94%. This allows people to be more competitive with the top guns who are averaging in the mid nineties at the 27. Of course, many shooters would need to go back to the 18 (16??) yard line. It would hurt too many egos but that is reality. Like now, some shooters may elect to turn down the reduction to nurture their ego, or to shoot with friends. Only those shooters who want to play the options and be competitive will benefit - and purses may once again become popular if the chance to win was improved.

    Don Verna
     
  15. gary0920

    gary0920 Member

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    Easy there young Knight of Robin - The golf and tennis comparison was, not that they are similar to trap in any way, but that the best in every sport should win an no amount of handicap should change that fact. And if my next meal depended money earned from shooting, I would be a hungry and thin man. I'm for anything that tries to even the odds of winning against these shooters, but I also don't expect the results would be much different even if you added a 35 yard line.
     
  16. DHN-MN

    DHN-MN TS Member

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    The best shooters do win the Singles and Doubles events. The intent of the Handicap event was to give every shooter an equal chance to win. The Handicap system as is does not allow that to happen.
     
  17. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    The ones that (might ridicule and) deny that there is a problem, are simply that, living in denial.

    All that are willing to propose that a change is needed, bravo for you!

    Thank you,
    Longshooter
     
  18. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    The real question is, how many complaining about the handicap system take their reductions when they get them? If you don't take your reduction, don't bitch. If your not offered a reduction, practice more, or don't play the money.
    Should the ATA offer reductions for avergaes below 94%? My 27 yard average is 92, and I get smoked at every big shoot. If I play the money it's my fault.
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Setterman what does your average or taking reductions have to do with actually getting yardage when you earn it?????

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Bob, I'm merely saying, I probably don't belong on the 27 yardline cause I only have a 92 average and it won't compete with the Big Dogs. the reduction average should be higher, maybe 94% instead of 90-91%. Instead of moving the big dogs back, move the little dogs ahead so we don't have to pour concrete and spend club money. You may have 15 people in the shoot off instead of 5, but thats probably cheaper than the earth and concrete expense.
    Of course the other option is more concrete!
     
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