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Yardage Analysis

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Beau69, Mar 15, 2009.

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  1. Beau69

    Beau69 Active Member

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    Bored on a Sunday night.
    From 2008 results on RJ Stuart website:
    There were 1753 punches (or so) listed in their 2008 results section.

    Analysis of the punches. The yardage is the yardage of the shooter BEFORE punch:

    19yd 33 2%
    20yd 131 7%
    21yd 118 7%
    22yd 115 7%
    23yd 95 5%
    24yd 94 5%
    25yd 117 7%
    26yd 114 7%
    27yd 936 53%

    So the people on the back fence account for more than half of the punches in a given shoot.
    I did see that during THIS years Southern Grand, over 71% of punches were to back fencers.

    Now: What does this mean? I dont really know. Just thought I would post.
     
  2. frank drebin

    frank drebin TS Member

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    I don't know either, but it could mean:

    -there are more people shooting from the 27 then the other yardages

    -27 yard shooters shoot more targets then the other yardages

    -27 yard shooters are better shots then the other yardages

    If 53% of the punches went to 27yarders at those shoots, I wonder what percentage 27 yarders made up of the total shooters? It obviously wasn't 53% but it could have been 15-20% couldn't it?

    fd
     
  3. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I think it means there should be a 28 yard line. HMB
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    It could also mean that the very best shooters shoot the best scores.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Ah...spring again. Jerry, what's it doin' out there in Arizona?
     
  6. jhoward

    jhoward Member

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    It could also mean that anyone not on the 27 already didn't want to get a punch except at a major shoot. Those on the 27 already don't care if they get more punches.

    What would be interesting to see would be where those punches for shooters closer than the 27 occurred. How many were at major shoots and how many were small shoots.
     
  7. RogerNRA

    RogerNRA TS Member

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    It means the best shooters are on the 27 yard line. What else???????Roger
     
  8. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    How about, how many punchs did the top 12 27 yarders each earn?
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It may mean the term "Handicap Event", is primarily among the best 27 yard shooters at an ATA sponsored grand? Of course, the final tally may depend on how hard mother nature blows her breath during the "event".

    A "yardage analysis" for a comparison of when targets were more testy prior to the better idea era would be interesting as well?

    Buzz, everything is going as expected in AZ and its great! JH got his grand slam years ago shooting tougher targets and its questionable some could even carry his junior shooting gun. Why dis-respect a man for having a different view or opinion than your's?

    Hap
     
  10. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    The cream rises to the top?

    Then you have people on the 22-25 yard line who refuse reductions - as a result they have almost no chance of getting a punch

    Heck, most shooters cannot average 94 from the 16. How are they going to get a punch at longer yardage?

    Don Verna
     
  11. The Kissable Wanker

    The Kissable Wanker TS Member

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    If you think about it. For the most part to reach the 27 you have to aquire a minimum amount of skill. Most 27 yard shooters are most likely High A, AA or AAA singles shooters. Most people never acquire the skill sets to get off the 20 yard line. Few people shooting from the 20 yard line are High A, AA or AAA singles shooters. Therefore most 27 yard shooters are more accurate in singles and handicap than a 20 yard handicap shooter. This will hold true irregardless whether 2 or 3 hole targets are thrown.
     
  12. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    5 handicap events and there were 936 punches for 27 yarders? More than a punch per squad?
     
  13. Clay KillR

    Clay KillR TS Member

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    Please excuse my ignorance, but how does someone on the 27 yard line get another "punch?" 27 and a half?
     
  14. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Time to go to the "60/60" method of trapshooting!

    Curt
     
  15. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    I've always viewed trapshooting in comparison with tournament golf...any of us can enter any tournament in the nation, all we have to do is pay the entrys, but in golf only those that make the cut can play for the gold. Yes, we're amateurs and they are pros, and that makes me glad we're not pros. You know who would make the cut and shoot for all the Buicks, $$$, etc. In 98% of our tournaments you have the option of playing all the money purses or just shooting for self-satisfaction. I think there are more of us doing that all the time. Almost all of us have that occasional good day where we shoot over our heads and then we say, darn it, I should have played the money. My view is that you're either a money shooter or not. Also, that is why the stupid yardage group system is employed in so many shoots, that sometimes allows lower scores to win categorys (18-21 22-24 25-27)when someone in one of the other groups may have a higher score, yet be 2nd in the group and not get any honors. It happens both ways. It always seems absurd to me that we created this handicap system that allows 8-9 yards between competitors (and that is a lot)in an attempt to allow less skilled people (or sandbaggers) to occasionally win over the cream of the crop, then revert back to a class system with yardage groups to indulge some less-than-sterling scores. One of the sage "truisms" of us very average 27 yarders (may average 84-86%) is that if Leo, Ray, Dan, etc. doesn't beat us, then some new 20 yarder will because he doesn't know how hard it is yet or he's sandbagging. One of the things to reveal about the high % of 27 yard winners is just who are they? You will find that 10% of the fishermen still get 90% of the fish.

    All this may sound like sour grapes but it isn't, I'm actually pretty content with the game as it is. There is absolutely no reason to extend to 30 yards, allow only 1 oz loads from 27, or any other of the various proposals to make the short yard winning percentages higher. Yes, I've taken five yardage reductions at various times over the years (1st time 27 yards 1979) but always manage to get enough cheap punches that I never gotten any closer than 24.5 yards and have always gotten back. What a struggle in the meantime though.

    My opinion...don't worry about those who beat you...before you can complain you must be able to shoot those same scores and if you're able, you have have plenty of yardage between 18 and 27 to hone those skills. To repeat another truism from a thread above.."the cream always rises to the top".

    Cheers and shoot the best you can...

    Larry Addison
     
  16. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    The punch data given for the Southern Grand was in a format easily importable into an Excel spreadsheet so one can do analysis on it. There were six handicap events held, and 139 punches awarded in those events. Of those 139 punches, 97 were "Honorary" (the shooter was already standing at 27 yards), while 42 actually involved yardage changes. Total punches awarded were 120.5 yards. The "Honorary" punches totaled 85.5 yards; the awarded punches totaled 35 yards.

    For the "Honorary" punches, Leo Harrison III received 5 for 7 total yards; Phil Kiner, Tank Lunsford, and Richard Marshall Jr. received four each for 2.5,4.5, and 4 yards respectively; Michael Blaisdell, Jeremy Eubanks, Sean Hawley, and David Kelly received three punches each for 3.5, 2, 3, and 2 yards respectively; sixteen back-fencers received two punches each for an average of 0.9 yards per punch; thirty-seven long yardage shooters received a single punch each for an average of 0.9 yards per punch.

    Of the 42 punches from shorter (than 27) yards, only five received two punches each. All the rest had single punches, except for Nathan Hofer. He was punched 2 yards from the 25.5 to the 27 for a 98, and later received an "Honorary" half-yard for a 96 from 27 yards.

    At least at this year's Southern Grand, I think it's clear that the long yardage folks dominated the punch list, with a very few of those folks very dominant. It's not always the usual suspects though - Harlan Campbell Jr. only received one punch for 1 yard.
     
  17. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    Pocatello, thanks for the stats. I think it fairly describes the "10% of the fishermen" I mentioned in my thread above. Can you imagine if we could just go and enter the US Open golf tournament, as we can in our largest trap tournaments, along with the current pros that make the cut, and what the winning percentages would be there? Maybe not a fair comparison but it's similiar.

    So what are we to do, disallow their entries, make them shoot from 35 yards, or ????. Kent Harris of Idaho recently put together a rather lengthly dissertation (with many qualifying stats) re the same "problem", that being the very few really dominating 27 yard shooters. Kent suggested that a lot of people are leaving the game due to this situation, that of being unable to compete with "those guys". Personally I don't really think that is the case. Those people I see come and go from this game generally start out performing reasonable well, then with some yardage and knowledge it gets a lot harder, then getting discouraged with themselves, they go on to something else. Just like some of the hot sub jrs. and jrs., without parental help ($$$) and encouragement they tend to fade away. In the real world not everyone has the potential to be AA-27-AA.

    Trying to keep it simple, my suggestion would be for the ATA and PITA to simply make it just a lot harder to make the 27 yard line in the first place. It really isn't that difficult to get there (27 yards) under the current system, with a reasonable skill level and lots of determination and of course the funds, but the hard part is to remain somewhat competitive after that. We've seen a lot of them (and been there), all the corpses littered around the 27 yard line where an 88 is a good day.

    Why give cheap punches for winning a handicap with, say a 92, at a shoot where there are less than 50 or so shooters, or for 4th or 5th place at very large shoots?
    Perhaps we should say it takes two 97's or better for a shooter to get yardage (save'em up you know), and do away with the 1/2 yards thrown in to harrass the "almost winners". With a system something like that, when someone "gets there" he or she would have a lot better chance of survival. Even then you still would have to beat "those guys" from whatever lesser yardage you occupy, and that can be a daunting task. So what, you can continue to go to the smaller regular shoots where they don't go and win without accumulating yardage. Think about it. No other changes but that.

    Notice that this time I stayed away from the subject of "Yardage Groups", which is essentially a Lewis Class that degrades the handicap system where the real winners are those at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. and so on places, regardless of yardage placement of those shooters....good for another thread in the future though..

    Cheers

    Larry
     
  18. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    I must concur with Mr. Ireland. Cream does rise to the top, in this case the 27 yard line. It's really quite obvious those boys for the most part shoot circles around us mid to short yardage shooters. Like it or not the real talent resides on the 27 yard line. J.W.
     
  19. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    There seem to me to be two very distinct types of shooters. On the one hand there are those to whom winning money is very important. Those are the ones who seem to me to have a vocal subset complaining about there being little option money played, and that a few very accomplished shooters win most of it at big shoots. Members of the other group care very little about winning money, and most of the time do not play options. For the most part they see a punch as a reward for shooting well, and aspire to gain the 27 yard line.

    The problem I see presented by making earned yardage much harder to get is that rewards the type 1 shooters and penalizes the type 2. The argument I often read is that the great success of the Harrisons, Kiners, and the like discourages new shooters and they drop out. My fear is that if we make it harder to earn yardage, there will be a large corps of fairly accomplished shooters at local clubs who win a lot there, take most of the money there, and stay at the same yardage there. How would that be for discouraging new shooters. Meanwhile shooters like me who just want to move back and don't give a rip about winning money see the chances of moving back evaporate. What incentive do we have to keep shooting registered targets?

    Continued later - suppertime!
     
  20. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    You are right Pocatello. We don't lose new shooters because the same dozen guys win the big shoots. New shooters are at the small shoots. I think a lot of them quit not because it is too hard or too easy to earn yardage, I think they get frustrated because the earned yardage system is just a mismash of nonsense cobbled together.

    By example, you break the same number of targets at a big shoot than at a small shoot and you get 2-3 times more yardage. That only makes sense if it 2-3 times harder to break targets at a big shoot. Only an idiot would argue that case.
     
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