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WSJ Article: Why Our Gun Debate is Off Target

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by RLC323, Feb 17, 2013.

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  1. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    Link above to a very good article.

    I believe many of us will find a lot to agree with in this article. I am looking forward to the book coming out in March.

    Don't get me wrong, I belong to the NRA because they are the most/only strength we have. The author nails down why there are 100+ million gunowners and only 4+ million NRA members.
     
  2. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Shame on you for being duped by that utter nonsense. Don't you recognize obvious infiltration by the enemy when you see it? That liar's writings are nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to divide and conquer. He sounds like a dirtbag lawyer from Iowa trying to compromise us out of Rights guaranteed us by the Founding Fathers and the Bill Of Rights.

    Wise up.



    -Gary
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, a pointy headed beret wearing Boulder CO Liberal, standing outside in a snow storm without a topcoat, does't do it for me.

    If he believed what he writes, and really looked into the NRA, he would know they are the biggest educators of securing weapons and to be a law abiding gun owner. This is a veiled attempt to bash the NRA again.


    The real reason we have less than 5 percent of gun owners in the NRA, is this phoney crap passed on about the NRA by people like Baun.
     
  4. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    "He sounds like a dirtbag lawyer from Iowa trying to compromise us out of Rights guaranteed us by the Founding Fathers and the Bill Of Rights."


    Gene can actually write???? Wonders never cease.
     
  5. GBatch_25

    GBatch_25 Active Member

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    How can you tell he's pointy headed if he's wearing a hat/beret?

    He never said he looked into the NRA. He said he drove around the US talking to 'gun guys'. I'll bet some of those 'gun guys' aren't even NRA members.

    I fail to see how this article is 'a veiled attempt to bash the NRA.'

    Did anyone notice this fellow, Dan Baum, has a Gun Blog? I don't agree with everything he says, but I don't see him as an infiltrator. For crying out loud, he's a gun owner and a shooter.

    Quote from his blog: One-gun-a-month laws are a classic example of a gun-control idea that contributes nothing to public safety but needlessly enflames and insults gun owners.

    Quote from his blog: Reasonable people can disagree, but I find gun guys refreshingly willing to think on a grand, philosophical level about what American gun ownership means, whereas the other side is too often mucking around in the shallow weeds of wanting to “do something” after a tragedy. Guns are more than sporting goods, and they’re more than murder weapons. They mean something powerful. The idea of the government keeping a list of everybody touched by that power makes gun guys recoil mightily.

    And a quote from one who anyone here would hardly call an infiltrator or anti-gun:

    Dan Baum “gets it.” More people need to look at it as objectively and analytically as he did. Buy a copy of his book and pass it around. It might help other people to “get it,” too. Massad Ayood

    Personally, I'd like to see everyone who buys a gun be compelled by the dealer to join the NRA. OR, have the NRA give a year's membership away with the purchase of every new firearm. Face it, folks. Politics is about votes. The more voters you have behind you, the more real and perceived power you have. Just think if the NRA had 1 membership for every 3 guns reportedly owned. That'd be 100,000,000 members. There's not a politician alive who would sneeze at that.

    BTW, RLC323, nice to know someone else reads the WSJ.

    Gene in Illinois
     
  6. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    I actually know a guy who loves shooting who is a hard core democrat. It is a near definition of insanity.
     
  7. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    RLC323

    SSeitz007

    My guess is that the reason your comments weren't received with enthusiasm is that for a large percentage of the the readers/posters of this site, any speaker or writer that doesn't say or write something like, "The 2nd Amendment guarantees me the right to own guns with out infringement and anything that limits that right is inherently evil and probably a communist plot. Also, gun owners are not responsible for what others do or what happens if someone were to get hold of their guns. Gun owners are entitled to keep guns at the ready for any eventuality and if that causes an unfortunate happening, it's the price of liberty, etc."

    I think you get the picture.

    And yes, I thought the Baum article was worth reading and thoughtful and I have rarely read anything by Massad Ayoob that i either didn't agree with or learn something.
     
  8. GBatch_25

    GBatch_25 Active Member

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    Traders:
    I get it.
    Can you say 'knee-jerk reaction' on the part of many ?

    Gene in Illinois
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    That article is a load of steaming male bovine fecal matter.

    The premise that gun owners need to do something about accidents is pure ignorance.

    Accidents with firearms are at an all time low while gunownership is at an all time high. This is not by accident. Gun owners, particularly hunters, have set up safety classes and safety awareness is high. This does not mean there is no room for improvement, but to cite this as a reason for needing more "gun control" is hogwash because the facts are being completely ignored.

    And the premise that law abiding gun owners are somehow share responsibility for the actions of criminals and the mentally disturbed that the liberals coddle and turn loose on the streets is also utter hogwash. Liberals can't even enforce the laws already on the books. Look at the tens of thousands of people rejected by NICS. Some were later cleared, but many are ineligible for gun ownership. Yet, how many have been convicted under this administration for the crime of trying to illegally buy a gun? A mere handful.

    So why should gun owners have a dialog with the ignorant anti's whose goal it is to ban guns incrementally given any opportunity? Their idea of compromise is to not take ALL guns now, just some, and come back later for more.

    And, of course, we have the useful tool Quislings who aid and abet them, plus, face it, some gun owners are anti-gunners. We have plenty examples of them right here on this website. Along with some anti-gunners who don't own guns but are trolling.
     
  10. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    I expect that the article would have been better received if the author was photographed wearing camo and standing by his old pickup with a Romney sticker on the bumper.

    The point he best gets across is that many of us do a poor job of securing our guns, and that many tragedies could be avoided by keeping the safe locked.

    With the right to bear arms comes great responsibility. Each time we as gun owners are not responsible, we open up the national discussion to curtail our right.
     
  11. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but it is still BS! I am not going to take the title of a unresponsible gun owner, if someone can break into my house, then my vault, take my guns and put them on the street! I would not take any responsibilty for some kid that broke into my car, hotwired it and killed someone, or a another car owner that got drunk and also killed someone.

    This constant blame sharing is what the Left uses against us to push through their agenda.

    Want to know how I know this guy is a pointy headed liberal wearing a beret????
    Because he is a self proclamed democrat living in Boulder, CO. You cannot live in Boulder Colorado, unless you are a pointy headed Liberal! Oh, what's that you say? I should not be making broad brushed statements about all people living in Boulder? Why not? Seems okay to paint all gun owners as irresponsible.

    This guy is hawking a book, and it is a bunch of crap. BTW, what self respecting gun owner would have his picture taken with an assault weapon anyway? His gun was once banned and will be again. Is he planning to shoot a school full of kids?? Don't most weirdo's that commit mass shootings have their picture taken like Kiebold and Harris did at Columbine?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From his statements:


    "it's safe to say a large majority of them want nothing to do with the NRA's angry extremism."

    "A lot of assumptions are made about gun owners, by the NRA and gun-control proponents alike. What nobody ever seems to do, though, is listen to them."
    "I'm a weirdo hybrid: a lifelong gun guy who is also a lifelong liberal Democrat"

    "I obtained a concealed-carry permit and wore a gun every place I went. I'd flash it like a Masonic pin, and gun guys poured out their stories. They seemed very glad finally to be asked about their gun lives by someone who was both sympathetic and not trying to manipulate them. "

    "They also get a charge from their proximity to the grim reaper. They stand apart from those who fear firearms, saying, essentially, I am master of this death-dealing device, and you are not. I am prepared for the kind of situation you can't even bring yourself to think about." To live intimately with such lethal devices, to be able to handle them safely, is a powerful self-esteem builder."

    (This guy has a gun permit???? One of the things about having a CCW is you keep quiet about it and you don't go around "flashing" it like a badge. You could lose it if the State finds out your doing that. What a nut case this guy is! Do all of you feel this guys sense of power of death? He needs his CCW yanked.)

    "Dan Baum, the author, with his antique German-made Mauser pistol in Boulder, Colo." (An assault weapon)


    "As individuals, the majority of gun guys are achingly responsible with their guns. As a community, though, they are lethal—so focused on criminals and government as the villains that they have failed to examine how they themselves might help to reduce the number of gun fatalities."

    "Where are those children and teenagers getting the guns? Not from gun stores, thanks to age minimums. Not from gun shows, either, unless they're getting an adult to buy them. And not from some murky "illegal gun market." They're getting them, by and large, from adults who leave them around, where immature hands can find them."

    "Is a gun guy who keeps his guns properly secured responsible for some knucklehead who doesn't? If the NRA is consistent in its logic, the answer is yes. Solidarity is a constant theme of the NRA, which exhorts its members to lobby and vote in support of the wider community of gun owners."

    "But that is where the NRA's vision of service to the community ends. For the NRA to suggest that law-abiding gun owners are responsible in any way for gun violence would shatter the notion that only criminals are to blame. So while the NRA trains people in gun safety and publishes books about gun care, it avoids drawing a connection between the carelessness of law-abiding gun owners and America's still-high rate of needless gun death."

    "What could the NRA and the community of responsible gun owners do to reduce gun deaths without government intervention? They could make unsafe gun behavior socially unacceptable, just as it has become unthinkable, among most Americans, to smoke inside another person's house or to make lascivious comments about underage girls. (This is typicla NAZI Liberalism, "you smoke you bad" "you don't lock up your guns in gun safe, you bad"

    "Imagine how gun culture could change if gun guys refused to hang out with those who left guns lying around their houses. "Sorry, dude. I'm not shooting with you until you clean up your act." Or if gun guys refused to shop at stores that sold home-defense guns without insisting that buyers also take safes to keep them in. Little by little, shooters and gun stores would get the message, and the problem of unsecured guns—the main source of gun tragedy—would wither away.

    Gun guys are right to object to government officials who propose sweeping gun controls without understanding guns. But until they take responsibility for the gun violence that so frightens their fellow citizens, they're setting themselves up for more regulation. Taking collective responsibility for social problems is not the same thing as knuckling under to a tyrannical government. In fact, it's the opposite."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If some of you want wear the label this guy has painted of all gun owners, fine, you go ahead, but I won't. Buy his book and make him rich, based on the crap he is spreading. I also refuse to accept the notion that because a "gun owner is not responsible, we open up the national discussion to curtail our right" because you are accepting the premise that if someone steals your property from your home, you are irresponsible. "

    I don't accept this guys "truth" because as a Liberal, he is painting everybody with a broad brush, which is what they do.

    IT'S THE CRIMINLS, STUPID!"

    My last comment on this BS.
     
  12. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    Brian,

    Do I understand you correctly, that you believe that mentally disturbed people who have not necessarily been deemed by a court of law to be a "danger to themselves or others" should not be turned "loose on the streets" but should be allowed to keep their 2nd Amendment rights as you claimed in an earlier thread? No 'coddling" by liberals, but they do get to keep their guns. Great logic.

    "The premise that gun owners need to do something about accidents is pure ignorance." So, according to you, gun owner's don't have any responsibility for the misuse of their guns by other people. You said that "Accidents with firearms are at an all time low." I would guess that by your definition the Connecticut shooter's mother didn't accidently make her guns available for his use. She purposely left them available to him so he could kill her and the kids.

    As a gun owner I believe that I have a responsibility to keep my guns out of the hands of people who might misuse them and that includes, the mentally "challenged", children, criminals, etc. I have never heard of a proper gun safe being broken into, or even a gun with a standard trigger lock being misused unless it was stolen first. When I think about it, I have never heard mention that a stolen gun had a trigger lock. Maybe they dissuade misuse.

    I wonder how many people on this site have direct knowledge of properly stored guns being misused? We do know that a very large percentage of misused gun were either stolen or taken without proper authority.


    Rick,

    Does this mean that you disagree with Brian? "Gun guys are right to object to government officials who propose sweeping gun controls without understanding guns. But until they take responsibility for the gun violence", etc. "Taking collective responsibility for social problems is not the same thing as knuckling under to a tyrannical government. In fact, it's the opposite." I agree with both statement, although I don't think you really know what a "tyrannical" government is. I can assure you, ours is not perfect, but it's not tyrannical. If you would like some direct experience with tyrannical governments, I can make some travel arrangements for you.

    RLC323

    I think you were right about the camo and the pickup truck sticker. It would have been even more acceptable if he had an AR in the window gun rack and a 1911 on his hip. Perhaps we should send this thread to him as a form of helpful advice.
     
  13. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Dan Baum does bring up some very valid points and it is good information for those interested in preserving their second amendent rights.

    I happen to agree with him on the topic of securing your firearms and how many gun owners need to 'clean up their act'. If that seems like an unacceptable compromise you make want rethink things.

    Baum kind of reminds me of a liberal leaning shooting friend of mine - and we are good friends. One of things that makes us good friends is that we can have discussions as opposed to arguements.

    Now go ahead and call me all kinds of nasty names if you want but also realize in doing so you are participating in the exact kind of behavior that is weaking our cause.
     
  14. CharlieAMA

    CharlieAMA TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Rick- I agree with you totally. Yes, I take the WSJ, and I read the article the other day, twice as a matter of fact. First of all, being a Mason, I don't know of any Masons that go around flashing their pins. They either wear a pin, ring, or whatever, but don't flash stuff. Secondly, he doesn't offer any concrete ideas to address the problems that he says exist. Yes, we need to be sure our guns are secure. But his flashing his gun with his CCL doesn't help our cause any.

    There is a saying I heard yesterday----Gun buy-backs because criminals have too many guns, is like getting castrated because your neighborhood has too many kids. Charlie
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Traders, put down the crack pipe. It's clouding your ability to comprehend and reason.

    There's no point in discussing anything you wrote to me, because it was all taken out of context, then filled with straw arguments, and conjecture.

    I would suggest you try not to debate, because you haven't even learned to form an opinion yet.
     
  16. wayno

    wayno TS Member

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    wolfram (and other well-meaning participants in this thread): forget it. these people simply will not consider anything but their own position, which is, of course, that any attempt to interfere with *anyone's* ability to purchase any sort of firearm in production is a violation of their "god given" 2nd amendment right.

    simple as that. thank god the vast majority of the shooting public recognizes them for the crackpots they are. "join or die", indeed.
     
  17. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    And another anti-gun shill squeaks up.
     
  18. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    wayno I thought you were going to leave this site for good

    Don't let the door hit you in the a$$
     
  19. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Yes, please leave. And take some of the other non-gun owning anti-gun shills with you.
     
  20. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    Brian,

    At the very minimum, you are consistant. Never give specific points where I am wrong, just insults. Childish. Try telling me what I wrote is wrong or taken out of context. Please remember that I have copies of your old comments about people who are mentally disturbed but not deemed a danger to themselves or others. You believe their 2nd Amendment rights are inviolate and not questioned. If I am wrong, please comment and I will do the research to refresh your memory.

    Cleaarly, you don't have a problem with opinions, just facts to back them up.

    Catpower,

    Am I correct that you only want to read postings that agree with your opinions. It must be hard for you to learn anything new and even change you viewpoint. Perhaps you, Brian, and Rick should start your own site. You could open membership by having applicants fill out an appropriately designed questionnaires. That way you could ferret out those of inappropriate political persuasion. I will understand if you don't send me an application form.
     
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