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Wrong HC Yardage Shootovers

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by JBrooks, Oct 24, 2007.

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  1. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    At our last ATA shoot, I was "shoot management". On the field directly in front of our patio there was a mid yardage squad shooting. The father of one of shooters, a subjunior who can shoot really well, turned to me and said "He is shooting this post on the wrong yardage, doesn't he get to shoot it over?", at about the same time as he shot his last target for the post.

    Facts:

    1. It was the last post of the 100 target event.

    2. He was standing a yard further back than his assigned yardage.

    3. He hit 4 out of 5, for a 94 and one target short of a shootoff for Champion.

    4. A couple of bystanders demanded he be disqualified because he had shot at the wrong yardage.

    There are 3 separate rules that I had to consider. What are they and what is the correct ruling?
     
  2. Post  2

    Post 2 TS Member

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    If you shoot the wrong yardage in a PITA event it is a "NO Target" and is to be shot over.

    Post-2
     
  3. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Important to remember "this post". If more than that, it is DQ time. You cannot better your score. Only hits are shot over. You missed, you missed. You do not shoot a miss over. So the kid starts down one on that post and must shoot four targets over from the correct yardage and accept the results.
     
  4. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    I'll take a crack at it . . .

    If I understand the scenario correctly you are saying the only post he shot from the wrong yardage was the last post of the 100 and it was noticed before the squad was finished and scoresheet turned in - then he has to re-shoot any targets hit from that post, targets shot from the wrong yardage and missed are lost.

    I don't know what the three rules are.

    Scott
     
  5. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    The Kissable Wanker - with a high dollar prize involved, I can hear the screams but I do not know the whole story, just commenting on what you stated. A shooter was classified. The target count must have been very close or the classifiers would not have made a mistake. If a mistake is made in singles or doubles, you can be moved up after the fact. You are not DQ'd, you just have to give back the trophy and class purse kinds of money.

    It is not at all clear to me that shoot management can DQ you for their own mistake. I know it is hard to believe, but lots of people do not read programs and really do not know if they should have been assigned penalty or not. So I would not automatically say someone was trying to pull one over when talking about handicap.
     
  6. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Brooks:

    In over simplified terms,

    A. Handicap competitors must shoot from their correct yardage.

    B. Scoring errors must be rectified before shooters move to the next post.

    C. Any target shot and broke from the wrong yardage must be shot over. Targets missed from the incorrect yardage remain lost targets.

    Fact one is irrelevant.

    Fact two is only relevant to the extent it establishes five targets were shot from an incorrect yardage.

    "He hit 4 out of 5" defines that four targets must be re-shot and scored accordingly. The missed target remains lost. Everything after the comma in that statement is irrelevant.

    On discretionary matters, the opinions of the scorer and shoot management count. Opinions of bystanders are irrelevant. As a side note, the opinion(s) of the bystanders isn't supported by the rules nor the details as you describe them.

    The bottom line? Mr. Calhoun's conclusion is correct.

    sissy

    -----------------------
    edited addition:

    ATA rule references

    Section VI, Subsection A says, "... may not stand on higher yardage unless penalty yardage is assigned".

    Section VII, Subsection A, rule 10 specifies score corrections must be made before the first shot is fired on the next post.

    Rule 13 in the same subsection states, "A valid protest may only be made by a contestant who competed in the event."

    The bystanders mentioned in the situation may lodge a protest but only if they shot in that event. Even so, they don't get to 'vote' on how the protest is resolved.

    Section VII, subsection E, rule 10 addresses shooting from the wrong yardage including do-overs and rescoring the do-over shots.
     
  7. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Neil's recent thread contains a link to the E.C. August ongoing minutes, which touches on the subject.
     
  8. Ray Brasser

    Ray Brasser Member

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    Right from the rule book VII E. 10. ...

    For example, targets shot at and broken from the wrong yardage marker must be shot over, targets shot at from the wrong yardage marker and missed will be scored "LOST".

    Gary and Scott have it right.
     
  9. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Kissable -

    I believe the discrepancy you point out in the rules isn't really a discrepancy at all. It's really two different rules, one which gives shoot mgmt the authority to disqualify someone for specific violations of the rule, and a separate rule that addresses how to handle shooting targets from the wrong yardage. I believe the first is there to address attempts to circumvent/take advantage of ATA rules (i.e. shooting from the wrong yardage when you know it's the wrong yardage or shooting in the incorrect class), while the second is an answer to honest mistakes made by honest people who were making no attempt to take any advantage.

    I shot on a handicap squad recently and the guy in front of me would move the microphone on a post change about 50 percent of the time. Once or twice during the event I caught myself standing at the wrong yardage (too close) after the post change, but did manage to recognize it prior to shooting any targets. However, if I had shot a target and then recognized it I'd like to think I wouldn't have been disqualified.

    Scott
     
  10. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Yep, Scott had the right answer but recoil dissected the situation masterfully. I also checked the comments in the Executive Minutes but I don't know how you would be able to fairly determine/remember where you were standing on the post before.
     
  11. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Wanker:

    In the interest of clarity, Section VII addresses official scoring. The various rules under Subsection E. define what constitutes a "No Target". Rule 10 is a bit wordy but among other things it defines targets shot at the wrong handicap distance as "no targets". It further specifies that targets shot at and broken from the wrong yardage MUST (emphasis mine) be shot over and targets shot at and missed from the wrong yardage are scored "lost".

    E. 10 is not just 'and (op. cit.) example'. The final line of rule 10 however, is one example of how the rule should be applied. It states, "For example, targets shot at and broken from the wrong yardage must be shot over, targets shot at from the wrong yardage and missed will be scored 'lost'".

    It is in fact, THE rule which states "exactly and precisely what to do when targets are shot at the wrong yardage".

    Yours in sport, sissy
     
  12. guncase

    guncase TS Member

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    In the case of the Wisconsin shooter who broke 100 ,, He was to have shot from 24-penalty yardage because he didn't have enought targets in, He was presquaded with some friends and CHOSE to shoot with them,, at 21 yards. HIs choice,, He knew better and laughed about it when his buddys showed him the Kolar I had on display.
    As to the Kolar,,, It was an option put together by WARWICK as a fund raiser for the Home grounds fund and he chose NOT to play the $10.00 option, so he would not have won the gun. The other 100 also chose not to play the option,, so for the 3rd yr the option was available,, no one won the Kolar!!
    Next yr we need more people to play,, or just one to shoot better!!

    As to the targets the man shot from the wrong yardage,, He is required to shoot the 4 targets over from the correct yardage,, the lost one remains lost!!

    Just the straight scoop on the DQ in Wisconsin,,,,,,Paul Sedwick,,,Warwick
     
  13. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Thank you guncase - there was a big gap in the Wisconsin story. If pre-squadding presents an oppertunity to shortcut the classification committee, I think folks need to fix the hole in the system.
     
  14. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    The question of did he shoot the whole event or just one post at the wrong yardage. If the young man walked off as finished and the sheet signed and then wrong yardage determined. Shoot over or DQ? I would say DQ regardless of one post or entire event.

    Don
     
  15. guncase

    guncase TS Member

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    Really is a non issue, he wasn't upset,, except for not playing the option.. He was a league type shooter, just in the game for fun with his buddys.

    The classification folks can't keep YOU from shooting on the wrong yardage,,, If you WANT TO. Paul
     
  16. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    Don: You would be WRONG!.... did you not read the many previous posts that cite the ATA rulebook regarding this circumstance? I was at this shoot and was not sure of the rule, so I READ THE RULEBOOK...VERY clear as to how to handle this situation, and they did it right. Walt
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Thanks Walt,

    Are you shooting Redlands Sunday?
     
  18. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did and if the score is turned in and someone protests that he shot at the wrong yardage I believe he would be DQ. Are you going to return to the line to re-shoot the targets, I don't think so. If he is still on the line it is a different matter. Read my post.

    There was a win taken back at a state shoot this year from shooting at the wrong yardage.

    Don
     
  19. Rvator97

    Rvator97 TS Member

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    Don: Nevermind..... Jim: Yes, Redlands Sat & Sunday. Walt
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Several posters have offered the correct way to handle this problem and Scott explained the options shoot management has very well.

    The shooter should shoot the hit targets over. The misses remain as misses. Shooting one post from the wrong yardage, shoot the hits over. Shooting an entire event from the wrong yardage is a DQ. It becomes harder if the shooter shot one field at the wrong yardage and three fields at the correct yardage.

    It can get even more complicated. I know of two clubs that have measured the yardage lines from the center of the trap machine in the house rather than from point B (ATA rule book). This was done when the clubs used old hand set traps. The machines have been replaced with new Pat Traps. Should all of the scores shot at these clubs over many years be disqualified? The yardage markers from 16 to 27 are about 1 foot too close at these clubs.

    Pat Ireland
     
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