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Would u consider this cheating at a ATA tournament

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by senior smoke, Jan 2, 2012.

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  1. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    Hello:
    I was at a local resturant the other day talking to a fellow trapshooting friend of mine. We were reminiscing about shooting ATA tournaments over the years. He brought up an event that he saw years before I knew him at an out of State, state shoot.

    He said long before automatic traps were used, it was luck of the draw on what pullers you had on your bank of traps. He had gotten to his trap around 4 squards early and noticed the trap boy would either fast pull or slow pull just enough so the shooter would still shoot at the target and most shooters missed the target.

    On this particular trap some shooters scores plumeted and ruined their round. Some of the shooters would call slow or fast pull to no avail. Then it was his turn to shoot and he turned down a couple targets but the kid got him on a slow pull causing the target to be called lost. The scores on the trap were terrible. I asked why they didn't stop shooting and ask for an official? He said they should have, but did not. I said you only have yourself to blame then.

    He than told me the next squad who had a well known All American shooter on it was about to take line and one of the officals stoped them and he heard the official tell the all American shooter that this puller was having problems and they were going to have him take his break. They than preceded to switch pullers.

    My friend felt this was a form of cheating. He felt the puller was switched and told to go on break because of the All American was visiting this club and they wanted him to come back to their state shoot in future years?

    Here is the question, Do you feel that this was a form of cheating? I believe if a squad had concerns about this puller, they should have stoped shooting and talk to an official, they did not do that, so it's on them. My friend feels the only reason he was removed was so the All American would have a good puller.
    What do you think?
    Steve Balistreri
     
  2. ntgr8

    ntgr8 Member

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    I think they probably did want to please the AA. Sometimes life just isn't fair. I was at a shoot years ago and the scorer went with the squad for all 4 fields. The kid we had was so slow the next squad caught up to us on the 3rd trap. Needless to say we had no winners on that squad. We did complain but were told no other pullers we available. This happened early in my shooting days so I went with it, not wanting to cause a stink. Today I would stop shooting until the problem was resolved. Like I said life isn't always fair.
     
  3. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Doesn't sound like "cheating" to me, sounds more like club management was brown nosing the Big Dog? I agree with you, your friend's squad should've stopped shooting and brought the issue to the attention of an official. Can't expect management to correct a problem they're not aware of?

    John C. Saubak
     
  4. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Should have brought the problem to an officials attention. sometimes scorers now are new and just not ready for the big-time...
     
  5. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    If your friend knew there was a problem, and didn't say anything, he only has himself to blame. If he had asked for the puller to be switched out, and was told no, only to have him switched out before the next squad shot, then there would be an issue.

    Was it also cheating for your friend to knowingly allow other shooters to shoot illegal targets, presumably to his advantage, since he knew about an issue that the other shooters didn't?

    Amat Victoria Curam
     
  6. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Thankfully that's no longer an issue with voice releases in use. Yes from time to time slow/fast pull does happen but for the most part there is consistancy from target to target. Now let's see how long it takes for someone to offer some anomolie example of a voice release problem.

    Eric
     
  7. FlaLagarto

    FlaLagarto Well-Known Member

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    Not cheating.. Back then it was a common practice .. I have ask for a puller change and never thought a thing about it. Pullers are people.. they have good days and bad.. they get tired and over worked.. maybe all the kid needed was a break.
     
  8. oz

    oz Active Member

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    that's not cheating IT'S POLITICS. oz
     
  9. geneleroy

    geneleroy TS Member

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    I doubt that a true All-American, AA/AAA could care less.. They would pick up on the pullers rhythm and if shooting singles, run the trap! On a cold blustery day at Vegas some years back the targets were coming out high, low, wide, fast, slow and just about every bad way a target could be thrown! Here comes Leo wearing a Bob Allen coat, never seen him shoot in more than a "T" so I watched. He took the jacket off, picked up the old 1100 and ran the the trap. After breaking the 100 he was in the back room playing cards! Sure wish I could have shot that good! Never was any good at cards either!

    If the puller was that bad the squad should have asked for a new puller! You were paying for legal targets, if you weren't getting them, say something! Don't shoot them then 'belly-ache' later! JMO
     
  10. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    Also remember this, contrary to urban legend, the big dogs are not always the ones that get the "break".

    Jim Butler and I had the same thing happen to us at the Wyoming State Shoot at the Circle G club back in the 80's. Also long story short we were not the only ones affected that day. All the "Big Dogs" shot the same bank in the final handicap. I had a 94 and missed 5 on her trap (1st 25). We did ask for a change and were denied. As soon as the last squad of "good" shooters left the first trap management changed her out.
     
  11. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    4,966
    I have yet to read any of the other posts but I will after making my post.

    I wouldn't use the word cheating but I would say showing alot of favoritism to the A.A. I would also want to know who was on the squad before the A.A shooter came up. Was there a good shooter on that squad?

    If I was on the squad that had fast and slow pulls I would have not shot at those that I thought were off time targets. If I still got bad targets I would then said something to the scorer. If it still continued I would have asked for an offical. I feel he was either a poor scorer and or playing games. I would have to watch the kid to say which way to decide.

    When I started shooting trap in the mid to late 80's at one shoot the kid in the house would set the target on the thrower and then punch out the center. The shooters just stopped shooting. An offical came in and got a new target setter and then chewed the hell out of the kid. He was about 12 to 14 years old. He said he was just having some fun.
     
  12. mx8dave

    mx8dave Member

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    Daro would have handled this properly MX8Dave
     
  13. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,564
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    Hello:
    I was at a local resturant the other day talking to a fellow trapshooting friend of mine. We were reminiscing about shooting ATA tournaments over the years. He brought up an event that he saw years before I knew him at an out of State, state shoot.

    He said long before automatic traps were used, it was luck of the draw on what pullers you had on your bank of traps. He had gotten to his trap around 4 squards early and noticed the trap boy would either fast pull or slow pull just enough so the shooter would still shoot at the target and most shooters missed the target.

    On this particular trap some shooters scores plumeted and ruined their round. Some of the shooters would call slow or fast pull to no avail. Then it was his turn to shoot and he turned down a couple targets but the kid got him on a slow pull causing the target to be called lost. The scores on the trap were terrible. I asked why they didn't stop shooting and ask for an official? He said they should have, but did not. I said you only have yourself to blame then.

    He than told me the next squad who had a well known All American shooter on it was about to take line and one of the officals stoped them and he heard the official tell the all American shooter that this puller was having problems and they were going to have him take his break. They than preceded to switch pullers.

    My friend felt this was a form of cheating. He felt the puller was switched and told to go on break because of the All American was visiting this club and they wanted him to come back to their state shoot in future years?

    Here is the question, Do you feel that this was a form of cheating? I believe if a squad had concerns about this puller, they should have stoped shooting and talk to an official, they did not do that, so it's on them. My friend feels the only reason he was removed was so the All American would have a good puller.
    What do you think?
    Steve Balistreri
     
  14. ntgr8

    ntgr8 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Messages:
    681
    I think they probably did want to please the AA. Sometimes life just isn't fair. I was at a shoot years ago and the scorer went with the squad for all 4 fields. The kid we had was so slow the next squad caught up to us on the 3rd trap. Needless to say we had no winners on that squad. We did complain but were told no other pullers we available. This happened early in my shooting days so I went with it, not wanting to cause a stink. Today I would stop shooting until the problem was resolved. Like I said life isn't always fair.
     
  15. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
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    Doesn't sound like "cheating" to me, sounds more like club management was brown nosing the Big Dog? I agree with you, your friend's squad should've stopped shooting and brought the issue to the attention of an official. Can't expect management to correct a problem they're not aware of?

    John C. Saubak
     
  16. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    Should have brought the problem to an officials attention. sometimes scorers now are new and just not ready for the big-time...
     
  17. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    10,522
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    If your friend knew there was a problem, and didn't say anything, he only has himself to blame. If he had asked for the puller to be switched out, and was told no, only to have him switched out before the next squad shot, then there would be an issue.

    Was it also cheating for your friend to knowingly allow other shooters to shoot illegal targets, presumably to his advantage, since he knew about an issue that the other shooters didn't?

    Amat Victoria Curam
     
  18. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,386
    Location:
    Coral Springs, Florida
    Thankfully that's no longer an issue with voice releases in use. Yes from time to time slow/fast pull does happen but for the most part there is consistancy from target to target. Now let's see how long it takes for someone to offer some anomolie example of a voice release problem.

    Eric
     
  19. FlaLagarto

    FlaLagarto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,458
    Not cheating.. Back then it was a common practice .. I have ask for a puller change and never thought a thing about it. Pullers are people.. they have good days and bad.. they get tired and over worked.. maybe all the kid needed was a break.
     
  20. oz

    oz Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,817
    that's not cheating IT'S POLITICS. oz
     
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