1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Would the "Artillery" hold work for Trap?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by biff, Dec 17, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. biff

    biff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,140
    In air rifle shooting they have discussed and proved that an "Artillery" hold improves the accuracy of some air rifles for better scores. With this Artillery hold, the gun is held rather losely and allowed to recoil freely while being shot. Also most airguns need a longer hold time because of their long lock time. Spring powered airguns have recoil and vibration which can and does affect their accuracy. Cannons have alot of recoil and the barrel travels backwards with recoil as the projectile moves out, yet with all this movement they are very accurate.

    Therefore would/could trap scores improve if the shooter held the gun loosely rather than locking the gun into the shoulder very tight? Which do you think is better, a tight or a loose hold? Biff
     
  2. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,351
    Location:
    Nashville Tn
    Would the

    Until Handicap loads are shot (ouch). Many O/U's might fan-fire if held very loosely.
     
  3. Bluedotman

    Bluedotman Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,581
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Would the

    Biff it work's for me ihave been useing the Artillery hold for 2 years works for me.
     
  4. Richshoots

    Richshoots TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    51
    Would the

    Biff,
    Why not try both "holds" and personally evaluate the out come ??
    Just askin'
    Rich
     
  5. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,319
    Would the

    I do believe that this is the first time I've heard the words "cannon" and "accurate" used in the same sentence.

    Please define for us what you mean by accurate?
     
  6. Ross

    Ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,634
    Would the

    Don't think I want to give my gun a running head start to hit me in the shoulder. But then I'm a BIG CHICKEN. Ross Puls
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Would the

    A weak relaxed hold makes for difficulty on the second shot in doubles. Too much stock/gun movement away from the eyes. I prefer a firm grasp and grip pulling the pad into my shoulder pocket to become one with my shotgun. I think tank turret rather than a loose cannon? :) I can shoot like both at times though.

    Hap
     
  8. indycamster

    indycamster Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    168
    Would the

    I vote for firm tight to the shoulder, cheek, firm hand on grip. To do otherwise seems counterintuitive. When I first started shooting, with the the old 870, it would let me know, in no uncertain terms, that it wanted to be quite snug to the shoulder, or it would try to kick it off...
    Now as for the "Artillery" hold as an innovation to improve "Trap scores," I am not sure the two disciplines are compatible. Shooting an air gun at a fixed target vs, a 12 gauge at rising, moving target, is just too different to have any meaningful value to trap. And with the thousands of shooters who shoot thousands of shells, at practice and clinics, surely the "Artillery hold" would have caught on and be the latest rage. Also, our terminology is so subjective, it is difficult to really say what is a "firm" hold or "loose" hold. I know what is firm to me, but I don't see how anyone watching me could tell one from the other.
    I really admire your willingness to "think out of the box." And try new things.
    Take care.
     
  9. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,736
    Would the

    <EM>"Artillery Hold"</em>......now that's a good one....ROFLMAO.....Who the hell dreamt that up......some ones snort-in too much crack again
     
  10. xringjim

    xringjim TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    807
    Would the

    Hap, thanks for pointing out your opinion on 'loose or hard'. I think my 'doubles' game is about to improve. Jim
     
  11. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,211
    Would the

    NO!!!!
     
  12. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,893
    Would the

    Now What would He Know?? LMFO Too funny Phil.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Would the

    I hold the gun very firmly, perhaps tight, with both hands and keep it very tight against my shoulder. This provides the best gun control for me. An added advantage of a tight grip with both hands is that the hands and arms will absorb quite a bit of recoil.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. biff

    biff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,140
    Would the

    Rastoff, have you ever heard of a German "88" used during WWll?

    221, I won't ask nor tell who left your cage door open, but have you ever contributed a positive comment on here? I was reading the airgun newsletter by Tom Gaylord the airgun Guru on the Pyramid Air web site and he was talking about a looser hold for better accuracy with airguns. He was the person that coined the word "Artillery" hold. No, it has nothing to do nor mentions trap shooting, but it piqued my interest as to whether this technique might apply to shooting shotguns.

    I was not thinking of so loose of a hold of a shotgun where you would come out of a gun during the move to the target, but possibly a less rigid grip in controlling rearward recoil. I feel it is sometimes good to throw a thought out and give some of the shooters something to think about in their quest to improve their ability to break targets and yes when I shoot some targets in the future I will definitely vary some of my gun mounted holds.

    I don't profess know much about trap or even be a good shooter anywhere like Phil,Ray,Leo or Harlan, but they got there through a route of experimentation, thoughts, and hard work. You will never know what your potential is for shooting if you never challenge yourself to be better than you are now!Biff
     
  15. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,319
    Would the

    No I haven't heard of a German "88", but that's not really the point. Usually, artillery accuracy is measured in "ball park" terms. This makes sense when you're talking about the immense ranges used with artillery.

    So, a cannon that puts a shell within a few feet of a target is really accurate for a cannon. The precision necessary for a shotgun is much tighter. Sure, the shotgun is not as accurate as a bench rest rifle, but it certainly requires more accuracy than a giant piece of artillery.

    Further, they are two completely different platforms. Even though the barrel will move backward with the recoil, the gun itself is held very rigidly.

    I agree with the idea of exchanging ideas. I think it was a good idea to open this up for discussion. I wasn't making fun of your original post. I just don't think this idea of holding the gun loosely will promote better scores. It may work for the odd man out, but not for most.
     
  16. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,209
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Would the

    Maybe we can solve the problems with the Super Handicappers by makeing them shoot "artillery" style. {:0) Ho ho ho!
     
  17. blkcloud

    blkcloud Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,308
    Would the

    I can put the death grip on my gun or hold it like I would a newborn baby..and still miss just as many..
     
  18. biff

    biff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,140
    Would the

    Yoda, I think you are absolutely right about doubles, glad you pointed that out.

    ctreay, Browning made a recoilless shotgun where the barrel travelled forward when fired to counteract the recoil, but I think the slow lock time interferred with it making a great trap gun.

    Rastoff, I didn't take it as anything other than discussion. I actually plan to petition the ATA next year to make it legal for the Senior Vet Class if they choose to use the "Artillery" method that they can then be placed on cassions, dollies, or stood in a shopping cart when they go to the line to shoot their events. That way the recoil would be somewhat negated and would place their shots within the ballpark of where the target flies! Biff
     
  19. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,620
    Location:
    Michigan
    Would the

    Biff you must forgive young Rastoff as he is ignorant of the fact we fought a war with the Germans in the 40's. It is quite possible that a modified version of the so called "artillery hold" might work in trap.

    If trapshooting was an exactness then all you would need would be 4 BB's. No you throw over 350 BB's at the target covering an area where the bird is flying. Sounds a little bit like artillery putting a round into an area and causing damage in a larger area around it. So Rastoff don't be so quick to knock the Biffster and write him off as a know not, he was merely posing a what if. When you have shot as many targets as he then you can lecture him.

    Don
     
  20. CannonCocker

    CannonCocker TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    20
    Would the

    Sigh.

    Artillery isn't "loose". It merely has a recoil reduction system. How that relates to grip I don't understand at all.

    Most artillery pieces have trails that are dug into the ground to "firm" the base so the piece (cannon + parts) doesn't move when fired (except for the recoil reduction system).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.