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Wolf primers?? How Hot??

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by StonewallRacing, Apr 20, 2009.

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  1. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    Where did you find the Wolfs?

    I love them, but I'm down under 1000 left, Recob's has been out for months.

    You can interchange with Winchester data.

    SW
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Listen to Fred, otherwise the Earth might leave orbit and crash into the Moon. HMB
     
  3. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    If you have been loading a 2¾ load with the WW's the Wolfs will work quite nicely. You will not blow anything up just by switching the primer but a combination of things may pose a problem.
     
  4. jbmi

    jbmi Well-Known Member

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    I've been using Wolf primers since my Fiocchi's were used up. I've gone through about 7000 of them so far. These loads that have worked very well for me. 1 oz, Rem.hulls, DR-XL-1 or Jammer XL-1 wad, 16.9gr. Clays /ClayDot, Wolf primers, or 1oz AA (new) Jammer XL-1 or DRA-12, 16.9 Clays/ClayDot. 1 1/8oz. Rem. hulls, WJ-12-RPL or CB3118-12A wad, 18.2 Clays/ClayDot, Wolf primers, Fed Gold Metal hull, DRF3-12 wads, 18.2 Clays/ClayDot, Wolf primers. I have yet to experience a dud, hang fire, or signs of any excess pressure. I shoot these through my Kolar.
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Wolf primers are an unknown, since there is little or no published data available. It can take many thousands of over pressure reloads to show any damage in the gun, but many thousands can damage a gun. Why take a chance? If you MUST do something risky, at least reduced the load down to a moderately low pressure load with the Highest pressure producing primer. That usually might be the Federal 209A, but not always. My advice is either to NOT use them, or to send a sample out for pressure testing before loading too many. At least you'd know where you stand. It would take the savings from only a few thousand to pay for the testing and then you'd know about what your loads are developing.

    Swapping components like primers is a crap shoot and you never know what you are getting. Same goes for other components. Why not substitute primers and load Clays using Unique data? Same stupidity and riak applies, only it's just not so obvious to some.

    Whoever says that Wolf primers can be loaded the same as Winchesters needs to show what that is based on. If you have data to support it, then post it here and I'll back off. If you only have hearsay, then stop putting forth stupid advice with no basis on fact. All of the qualified advice out there against swapping primers, and yet there are still some people here that just don't care about safety.
     
  6. lofat2

    lofat2 TS Member

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    I have loaded 20,000 Wolf`s on 12,20,28,&.410, Clays on 12, International on 20, Longshot on 28, & H110 0n .410. Using WW 209 data as per Jeff Recob & have had no trouble except finding more of them. Recob has been out of stock for months now, & he can only guess when they will be back in stock. He did tell me he has 4 million coming. I ordered 5000 from Wideners in Tennessee to hold me over, but they are getting more expensive($120.00 + hazmat + shipping = $155.00
    Bob
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    lofat2

    Was Jeff Recob able to provide the basis for the advice to use WW 209 data for the Wolf primers, or is he just spreading the same bad advice everyone else gives? Tastes like chiken, shoots like WW209? Next time someone gives you that advice, ASK for the data to back it up. I'd be pretty sure there isn't any concrete data thay could provide. Just that the "company rep" said so, or THEY have done so. I wasn't born yesterday, so I don't buy bridges in Brooklyn, send money to Barritas in Nigeria, or blindly use Winchester Primer data for Brand X primers.

    Substitutions might be OK in reasonable loads, but you never know what you are getting. Either send some out for testing or use reliable data for the EXACT components you are using. Either that, or shoot factory and leave reloading for the grownups.
     
  8. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    When I bought my first brick from Recob's, Jeff said they had tested the primers and said they were comparable to Winchester.

    Jeff, Karen and staff have been nothing but stellar in their customer service, suggestions and assistance to myself and thousands of other re-loaders.

    I do not think a company as reputable as theirs would blindly stake the business they have built up over years by making false claims without having substantial data to back it up. Especially when safety is involved.

    Just because it's not printed in a book, does not mean it's not accurate.

    I follow Alliant's recommendations and use the Wolf rather than the Winchester. 9,000 rounds without a single failure or issue. I never push the limits with my loads. I have no way of checking the pressure, but I am certain I am shooting a safe load.

    I will drive straight to Recob's the day the next load of Wolfs arrive and stock-up again.

    SW
     
  9. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    StonewallRacing

    Just ask to see the test data that they refer to. If their testing consists of pressure and velocity measurements, then the loads they tested would be safe enough if the testing was done right, and the results were within bounds. That does not mean that the Wolf primers will give identical results in every combination. When a blanket statement that one data set is equivalent to another, based on a couple of samples, that idea is seriously flawed. When they can provide the test results, then I would be inclined to believe it. BUT only for the loads they tested. I'm not asking for a printed book or publication. I'm requesting something to back up the statement that was made. Exactly WHAT data do they have to make that claim? Post it here and I'll put it to rest if it's subtantial. If you can't, then shut up and stop making claims you can't substantiate. It has nothing to do with Recob's customer service, but everything to do with safety. You have already stated that you don't have pressure data on the loads you are using. I have already stated that a substitution might be OK in some circumstances, but you really have NO way of knowing what you are getting unless you have some testing done.

    Some people might be able to stay within limits and keep their loads fairly safe, but when a statement is made that one component is "identical" to another and that data can be interchanged, there will be someone out there willing to push the limits. Start with a load listed for the Winchester primer at 11,000 PSI. What effect will changing the primer have on that pressure. Will it go up, down, or stay the same? It's a crap shoot and a thousand PSI can be all it takes to go way over the top.
     
  10. StonewallRacing

    StonewallRacing Well-Known Member

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    Quack,

    Your point is taken. I will try not to make a "blanket statement" as such in the future.

    Where do you send a load for pressure testing and what does it cost?

    SW
     
  11. Big Al 29

    Big Al 29 TS Member

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    How about this:

    When ever you get a new primer without data, to be on the safe side, use Fed209A data?

    To stay in good graces with the Primer Police I still load Rio primers within nominal pressure limits even if it gives me some barrell fouling because the data is pretty weak.

    After about 20k of Rio's through my K80, and we all know how K80's blow up with the slightest amount of pressure, I am satisfied with my own testing.

    IMHO before I went and spent 2 months time, and spending money having a specific load tested with a Wolf primer I would just use Fed data to keep the Primer Nazi off your ass. The friggin reason i am using a Wolf or Rio is to save money. Why in the hell would I spend all that time and effort when I am looking for a cheapo???

    Just use Fed data OR use Win data with a load that does not push the pressure envelope.

    I am all growed up and I reload.
     
  12. lofat2

    lofat2 TS Member

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    I also am shooting one of those `guaranteed` to blow up K-80`s. I have all four barrels for 12,20,28 & .410. The custom wood alone was more than $3600. If I thought for one minute that I could do damage to the gun or risk injury to myself & or fellow shooters buy using these primers, I would`nt shoot. I too believe Jeff & Karen would not risk their business & or reputation on selling junk. To each his own I guess.
    Bob
     
  13. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    StonewallRacing

    Talk to Kevin at Downrange Mfg. I believe they do it there and it's probably around $25-$30 for five. Don't quote me on that, since it was a couple of years since I inquired. He does a great job and I have seen a lot of his data sets. For $25 - $30, you can't go wrong and it's peace of mind. HP White Labs has done quite a bit, but I believe they are a bit more expensive. Their test results are well detailed. I'm sure if you were to post an inquiry on the forum, you'll have three or more places to work with. Kevin at Downrange seems to be over on your side of the world, so it's closer. He may even have tested simialr loads and may be able to point you in the right direction.

    As stated, my concern is the impression and inexperienced or novice loader would get from reading these posts. If you use Winchester Data for everything, then why have other data? When using an unknown, I will use the highest pressure data with the "other" components, under whatever primer produces it. If that is a Federal, CCI209M, Winchester 209, or Remington, I would use the lower pressure loadings for the highest presure producing primer and keep my pressures under 8500 - 9000 PSI to start. That gives me a bit of headroom in case the change in components causes a dramatic increase in pressures, or even to allow firing the loads under higher temperature conditions.

    The best advice is to settle on a load, assemble some, and send them for testing. I don't have any detailed pressure testing results for the Wolf primers, so I can't really share anything substantial. I don't plan on buying any in the near future either, since there are other primers out there that have plenty of data available. I don't think saving $10 - $20 a sleeve of 5000 is worth taking the chances for some reloaders. It's just too easy to believe what some people tell them and get into trouble.

    As for Recob's. I know their reputation, but I have had people with good reputations give me bad information. I'm sure it's not because of malice, but I would like VERIFIED information to go by. Not just some hearsay advice. Even if Alliant Powder or Hodgdon told me it was OK, I'd like to know what they based that advice on. Did they test them and do they have pressure data to go by, or are they just giving me the usual "Tastes Like Chicken" story.
     
  14. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding that backing off on published load data, to play it safe, when using a different primer could be dangerous when a slow burning ball powder is one of the components. This combination can lead to detonation and a blown up gun. Be careful. HMB
     
  15. Big Al 29

    Big Al 29 TS Member

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    What are the ball powders used in 12 gauge Trap loads? Thought they all were flakes.

    The only ball powder I know of is for .410 and thats 296. I think Alliant makes "410" but when I was shooting skeet a lot we always used 296.
     
  16. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    hmb

    Ball Powders? You mean WW296, H110, HS6, HS7? How about Longshot? Although it's not a "ball" powder, the same warnings should apply. The warnings about reducing powder charges when swapping other components, would apply mostly to "Normal" trap/target loads using "Normal" 12 ga trap/target load powders. If you are using the above mentioned powders in the 12ga for target loads, you probably have other issues as well. Reduction of listed loads for these powders that are intended for other gauges or very heavy loads could have a potential safety issue. Longshot is not to be loaded lightly. They are special purpose or other purpose powders and don't belong in 12ga trap loads. With these powders, you really should stick to the data exactly. At the normal pressures of these powders, a small change could put you outside normal limits. With normal trap load powders and loads, the reduction of a half or a full grains shouldn't put you into a dangerous situation. You might have a poor load, but it's not as risky as downloading Longshot loads. A inquiry to Hodgdon resulted in the advice "Not" to reduce or alter the loads shown in their manuals. They mentioned the term "detonation" and that was enough for me not to experiment outside of given data.
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Quack,

    Longshot powder is a type of ball powder, it is referred to as a "flattened ball" double-base powder. The reason it has a better than average chance to detonate is because it is 34% nitroglycerin. You known that stuff that goes bang when you drop it. HMB
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Buc,

    There are many ball powders that have been used in the 12 guage. Winchester makes a number of them. AA Plus, WST, WSF, 452AA, 473AA, and WSL are a few. HMB
     
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