1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Winchester Super X engraving

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by P.Muerrle, Jan 23, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. P.Muerrle

    P.Muerrle TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    A friend brought to my attention some misconceptions that have been posted regarding factory engraving on the SuperX. As a former Winchester Custom Shop engraver I thought I could clear a few things up.
    SuperXs were engraved in the Custom Shop. Nick Kusmit, Jasper Salerno, Joe Crowley and myself engraved many of them. The engraving that was put on was based on the Model 12 patterns. Almost all of the ones we engraved were No.5 patterns. We did engrave trigger guards and bbls., as this was also done on the M12 No. 5. Ken Hurst was not an in house engraver. He did engrave as an outside contractor for the factory in the mid, late eighties. He did a number of SuperXs in this capacity but the pattern he put on them was not a standard No. 5 pattern.
    I would also like to add to the guy (eightbore) who suggested that I only do engraving and am not a gun collector or have much documentation on the subject, you are completely in the wrong. I have never met you and therefore don't understand why you would post these misconceptions about me. I surely would not do that to you.
     
  2. DoubleAuto

    DoubleAuto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,313
    Location:
    Out On The Mountain
    Could you please answer a question about Super X1 stocks? I have seen it stated on other sites that some Super X1's had/have the saltwood as found on some late 1960's/early 1970's Browning guns. Are you aware of any saltwood used on Super X1's?

    Any information is appreciated.

    DoubleAuto
     
  3. P.Muerrle

    P.Muerrle TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    It was not used during my employment which ran into the mid 1980s.
     
  4. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,002
    Pauline, I've been reading your posts over on GunBrokers, thanks for taking the time to answer many questions. Wayne
     
  5. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    HI Pauline - I have some pictures of a Nick Kusmit engraved SX-1 (per the late Bob Baumgart) and I have a Pigeon grade SX-1 whose letters indicate that it was done by Ken Hurst's shop.

    To me, they both look like 12-5 engraving, specifically dog flushing upland bird on left and waterfowl (ducks) on right hand side. Please, in what respect did Ken's engraving depart from the standard 12-5 pattern.

    Below is a picture of my Pigeon, below that is a gun I commissioned Ken to do on a slick sided receiver that is my personal interpretation of the tradition of a Win 12-5 engraving....not a copy, but to what I have felt is the core of the themes in that pattern. Thanks. Stephen Meyers


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]


    My custom commissioned gun


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
  6. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Pauoline - Here are pictures of what Bob Baumgart told me he had traced to back to be a Nick Kusmit engraved set of guns...or at least the gold inlayed Super Pigeon was attributed by Bob to Nick as, I believe, the SP prototype. Certainly these two guns have a greater level of detail than my production Pigeon as well as a difference in style of scroll (which seems to be such a personal signature, as a layman, it seems that each engraver interprets a stype of scroll in a slightly different manner....but I still love my Pigeon as a rare piece of Winchester history. Best to you. Stephen Meyers


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
  7. P.Muerrle

    P.Muerrle TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Put the guns side by side. Ken has a very distinct style. As far as us factory engravers we had to duplicate. To explain, every engraver in the factory had a slightly different style simply because you are dealing with a hand done product. In the factory however, you were not supposed to change the pattern as that was the pattern that was pictured in catalogs and was what the customer expected. Also we were all taught to be able to duplicate the previous engravers styles in case a gun came in for restoration and part of the engraving was obliterated to due polishing out pits or scratches. Ken's engraving is certainly nice work but the background on his guns is different and the scroll style is different. This was not the way the SX pattern was executed during our employ. After our employ Winchester obviously allowed him to do his interpretation. We were not allowed to do this.
     
  8. SX-1 Man Bud

    SX-1 Man Bud Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2007
    Messages:
    120
    Hello Steve,

    Please send me your e-mail address. I have the mate to the Nick Kusmit
    Super Pigeon S/N M153. Let's talk.

    Thanks, Bud
     
  9. eightbore

    eightbore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,329
    Pauline, I apologize for making the statement about your credentials as a gun collector. I will try to find the post and expand on my apology. I have promoted your book as a great source of historical information about Winchester. I'm glad I caught this thread so I could reply to you. Maybe now we can get some better information on how the late Super-X upgrade project came about. My catalog collection shows the availability of high grade Super-X guns long after the standard Super-X was discontinued. Now we are finding out more about these guns. Pauline, thank you for participating. I hope you continue. Bill Murphy
     
  10. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    My paperwork that was signed by Bruno Pardee said the work was done at an outside location at a place in Vitgina I believe. Why would Bruno say this? Jeff
     
  11. eightbore

    eightbore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,329
    Because Ken Hurst's engraving studio and school was located in Virginia. Winchester contracted for Ken's company to engrave the late Super-X high grades.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

bruno pardee

,
craigslist winchester arms bruno pardee
,
crowley gun engravers
,
custom shop winchester super x
,

jasper salerno

,
merlie winchester engraver
,

nick kusmit engraver

,

winchester super x 1 engraving patterns