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Winchester Compression-formed AA & HS Type plastic

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ram2008, Apr 1, 2009.

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  1. ram2008

    ram2008 TS Member

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    I have 500 or so of these once shot, 12 ga.,2 3/4 inch AA hulls, the new type double AA's, with the tapered plastic bottom shot cup. When I bought the cases new, they were 1 1/8 ounce, 7 1/2 shot. I can't find a wad that will fit in these, that will crimp like a new factory shell, using a 1 1/8 ounce bar. The crimp will not go down and fold as it should. I have tried the reccommended wad, WAA12, which is on the Hodgdon chart, but there are several others listed also. I was using Clays powder. It seems that I need a tapered wad to fit down into the plastic cup. I wonder what type of wad the factory puts in them? If anyone out there can tell me what wad they use, it will sure save me some time and frustration, and money! I hate to buy a bag of wads to only find out that they will not crimp down with my 1 1/8 oz load. With my 1 oz bar, I use a WAA12SL, pink wad, which crimps fine.
    Any and all help, please.

    Thanks,
    Richard
     
  2. flamborn

    flamborn TS Member

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    What loader are you using? Do you seat the wad with any pressure? There was a similar post earlier this week and I think someone suggested checking with Winchester because this is comon with the HS hulls and there is a way to adjust the crimp.
     
  3. ram2008

    ram2008 TS Member

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    flamborn;

    I'm using an older Mec 600 Jr. I have put as much as 30# pressure on the wad, which is wrong, because manual says no pressure on wads at all. I had to cram it down into the tapered powder cup to bottom it out so it would seem to final crimp. The shot pushes open the 8 fold crimp, and rises up about a quarter of an inch in a pointed fashion. These wads are definately the wrong ones that the charts recommend.

    Thanks for the reply
     
  4. skeetjunkie

    skeetjunkie TS Member

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    Well, well, well, what do you know! Someone else has discovered that the compression formed hulls are NOT identical to the HS hulls. I just had this same sort of correspondence with Lyman over their manuals giving recipes for loads that will work quite nicely with the CF hulls but won't fit in the HS hulls. Their response? Well, gee, Winchester says they are the same. Never mind that Lyman admitted to having had trouble assembling the loads. By the way, that's not a phenomena of just 12 gauge hulls. It's even more pronounced in the 20 gauges.
     
  5. Spanky

    Spanky Active Member

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    I've been reloading the older and newer style "AA" for 20 years or so. No problems in doing so on progressive and single stage MEC's. Clays, Red Dot, Win. hulls, Claybuster "AA" hulls. What do you mean by "new" ???? The version that's been around awhile????? You may have to bump up the wad pressure in slight increments. What are your shells doing, buckleing at the last crimp/close station?
     
  6. flamborn

    flamborn TS Member

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    How much powder are you using? Did you weigh the powder and shot with a scale?
     
  7. Rebsmith

    Rebsmith Member

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    RAM2008.....You don't mention your powder charge of Clays but I would guess it's around 18 to 18.5 grains. The WAA12SL (pink) wad has the exact same base dimensions as the WAA12 wad. The only difference is the depth of the shot cup. I have loaded these wads ever since Clays was put on the market and at present am using Clay Dot with excellent results. The old compression formed hulls and the new HS hulls will load interchangeably IF the press is set up properly and wad pressure is about 40#. I load the old style hulls because I have barrels of them but I got 1000 of the new hulls to see how they loaded. Once the press was adjusted, I loaded them until I got tired of looking at them and threw them away. Once you get your 600jr set up correctly you will be fine.


    Jere
     
  8. ram2008

    ram2008 TS Member

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    I just checked one of the empty AA hulls, and they are stamped HS on the bottom of the brass, so I guess these are not the compression formed ones, right? These are new hulls, maybe 6 months old, bought new at Acadamy Sports. I bought a case and fired them at the club, and kept the hulls for reloading. Does Winchester recommend a certain wad for these HS hulls? Has anyone loaded these with a 1 1/8 load. I used Clays powder @ 16 gr., and the WAA12 wad, with 30# pressure, and the shell will not crimp down, protrudes out to a point, and the shot falls out! If I adjust the final crimp on the last station, the shell bulges out at the bottom, just above that plastic powder cup. Not a good idea here! I don't know what to do now....

    I wonder if AA powder will make a difference. I believe I seen it on someone's store shelf somewhere.
     
  9. Rebsmith

    Rebsmith Member

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    ram2008.....Read my last post! The WAA12 wad is THE wad recommended for the AA case, compression formed or the new HS hull. If you use 40# of wad pressure as recommended by Winchester and your press is adjusted properly, you will get a factory new crimp.

    Jere
     
  10. flamborn

    flamborn TS Member

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    I think you might need to lower the crimp starter not the final.
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    ram2008

    "Has anyone loaded these with a 1 1/8 load. I used Clays powder @ 16 gr., and the WAA12 wad, with 30# pressure, and the shell will not crimp down, protrudes out to a point, and the shot falls out!"

    Don't take this the wrong way but if I read the quote correctly you are applying 30# of wad pressure before the lead is dropped. Then after the lead drop it is spilling out of the shell. If I am correct so far how much wad pressure do you think you will have after final crimp when you force all of this down another 1/4"?

    I think you need to do one of two thing. Either contact Winchester and explain the problem to them. Ask if you are using the right wads and if so why you are having the problem. Or try changing to STS hulls and see if the problem persists.

    I do not load AAHS hulls because they are junk in my opinion and they have a separate base wad inside the hull. In my opinion asking for trouble. The original AA hull was used for better than 25 years with no major problems that I know of so why did they change?

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. rick979

    rick979 Active Member

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    Bob: Winchester changed the hull because the older one could be loaded 25 times or so and its pretty hard to SELL new shells when a guy could load the original AA's so many times and they crimped just perfect. That's my slant on it. Rick Kipp .... Texas
     
  13. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    As stated you need to increase the wad pressure to at least 40 lbs, this is to insure that the wad pushes through the lip of the base wad.

    You also need to lower the crimp starter so you get a hole smaller than the eraser end of a pencil, a little bigger than the lead is about right.

    Then adjust the crimp depth and tightness to how you like it but does not buckle the hull.

    If the AA logo is boxed I would be very careful about these "new" hulls because these have had the base wad shoot loose. I think all hulls with the HS should be the 2nd or 3rd generation. It always is a good practice to look down barrel(s) after every shot when shooting 2 piece hulls.

    Jason
     
  14. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    The top of the shot charge should be 1/2 inch below the top of the hull to give you enough plastic for a proper crimp.

    If It's higher than that you need a shorter wad.

    I have found the internals of both hulls to be the same volume.

    Borrow a few Blue Dusters from a friend and try them.

    HM
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    rick979

    "Winchester changed the hull because the older one could be loaded 25 times or so and its pretty hard to SELL new shells when a guy could load the original AA's so many times and they crimped just perfect."

    Rick for what it is worth I agree with you. Another reason to load STS hulls if winchester cares so little for those that made them at one time the most popular hull in the world. They deserve what they get.

    waverider

    "As stated you need to increase the wad pressure to at least 40 lbs, this is to insure that the wad pushes through the lip of the base wad."

    If they are not.

    "If the AA logo is boxed I would be very careful about these "new" hulls"

    Do you still need at least 40lbs of wad pressure?

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    If you are indeed loading on a MEC press, call them and they will walk you through setting up the crimps. The WAA12 wad is correct for the New AA hulls with a 1 1/8 oz load. Winchester loads these with a dense powder, supposedly WST. 16 grains of Clays should not present any trouble. A wad such as the Blue Duster would probably be worse, since they seem to have stiffer struts and are harder to collapse and tend to push the crimps open if they are not tight. It sounds like you are collapsing the hull and not obtaining a deep or strong enough crimp. Lowering the precrimp might help a bit. I provided you with a link to the Mec website. Their contact info and hours are listed on the homepage. You can email them or call them. Their support is excellent. You can also download a manual for your loader and follow the instructions to be sure you have it set properly.
     
  17. ou.3200

    ou.3200 Well-Known Member

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    I have sometimes had the ram partially pull the wad up inside the hull as the ram is withdrawn after dropping the shot. Make sure the wad is staying down after the shot is dropped. I have also had the base wads move up a little in the case causing the shot to be at the top of the crimp after the shot drop. I would suggest throwing the AAs away and switching to STS hulls. The AAs are not worth the trouble in my opinion.
     
  18. ram2008

    ram2008 TS Member

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    Thanks for the info everyone! I'll get out to the loading bench and see what I can do.

    Richard
     
  19. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    Bob,

    I will be transitioning to Remington STS/Nitro hulls and I have not been saving the 2 piece Win AA hulls.

    So, I have not really checked the later generation(s) Win AA hulls. I sort of recall reading that the newer new hull's base wad have a tapered lip, so those may be ok with less wad pressure. Just to be sure, I think it would be wise to keep using at least 40 pounds of wad pressure, after all it still has the base wad lip.

    Jason
     
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