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Will the World's fastest shotgun please stand up?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Luckyman, Feb 16, 2009.

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  1. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

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    Will the World

    Speed Shotgun
    By Patrick E. Kelley
    multigun.com


    Copyright 2001, Patrick Kelley
    Taken from the November 2001 issue of Front Sight magazine, official journal of the United States Practical Shooting Association.
    In our world of action shooting, the 3-gun format is taking hold. With the improved success of the 3-Gun Nationals (thanks USPSA) and the well-established Mystery Mountain 3-Gun, your opportunities to get in some quality long gun time are growing. Outside USPSA you will find other venues to scratch your long gun itch, such as the SOF and World Championship Tactical 3-gun competitions.

    Becoming a USPSA member in 1990 after having spent some time in the slow pursuit of Metallic Handgun Silhouettes and NRA bull's-eyes, I was immediately hooked on our game of speed, power and accuracy. With some exposure to high-speed shotgunning via bowling pin shooting, my fascination with ever-faster shotguns has become deep-seated. In the years between then and now I have used most of the popular (and one unpopular) self-loading shotguns. I've used them with barrels from 19.75 to 28 inches, capacities from 8 to 15 rounds, rigged as tactical or open, with optics, ports, side saddles, Tec loaders, trigger jobs, tuning, and mercury recoil reduction.

    Remington 1100/11-87
    Early on my list of tools was the 1100 Remington. Most of you are probably familiar with this arm. It possesses the attributes of low recoil (due to gas operation), good ergonomics, high cyclic rate, easy maintenance, and reasonable affordability. With many aftermarket parts available, it is the top choice of many 3-gunners. Except for one thing, we could conclude the article right here.

    Unfortunately, the shotgun that seems perfect is not, as RELIABILITY, (especially long-term reliability), is a problem. Practical shooters tend to shoot more than the average wingshooter, and they shoot long strings of heavy loads. This is the downfall of the 1100/11-87 platform.

    The 1100's problems relate to the interceptor latch and magazine tube.

    We cause the problems with the magazine tube. For capacity purposes, we hang extension tubes on the end of the factory tube. If this transition isn't smooth, you have problems. Consider that the shells, follower, and spring must pass by it in two directions. On my 1100's, I use the factory steel follower or one of my own spun out on the lathe to help glide over any such problems. If you must use a plastic follower, keep it clean and smooth.

    The larger problems surround the magazine spring. We pay close attention to our pistol recoil and magazine springs (sometimes too much), but we neglect our shotguns. In the 1100, this is a serious mistake. As a rule of thumb the spring should be 8" to 10" longer than the assembled length of your shotgun and extension.

    The 1100 trigger group contains a part called the carrier release. The carrier release is operated solely by the force of the shell leaving the magazine tube. Really! The thing that allows your shotgun to close and feed a live round is dependent upon the force of the shell leaving the magazine tube! How often have you seen 1100's lock open, with a round sitting in the action? Nothing looks wrong, but the bolt has stuck back? Any trouble with feeding rounds out of the magazine tube can cause the carrier release to "stick" on the carrier stud.

    When all goes well, dropping the hammer, activating the disconnect and interceptor latch, feeding the next round, tripping the carrier release, plus loading the round and re-setting the trigger takes about 14 hundredths of a second. Yes, this is the cyclic rate of the 1100 Remington. Shot-to-shot speed stops at 14 hundredths. While it is possible to pull the trigger faster, the disconnect will not reset until the bolt is fully closed.

    This tidbit of information came to me via my 1100's, and the aforementioned quest for speed. While not known in the big circles, I was, for a period of time, (here in my little neck of the woods) referred to as "Machine gun Kelley." During a bowling pin shoot I noticed I was either trigger-freezing or somehow stutter-stepping around pins. With the attendant five second penalty per pin left on the table, this would never do. Only a poor sportsman blames his equipment, but I had to know whether I suffered from trigger freeze or if the gun was at fault. Having multiple 1100's on hand, a video camera, and an operator, I soon found out more than I wanted. A cool November afternoon found my buddy Hunter and me out testing one of my 1100's. Hunter was picked because he did not immediately suggest it was pure folly to think I could outrun a self-loading gun. Careful examination of slow motion footage clearly showed my trigger finger pulling the trigger a second time before the action closed. Now what?

    More testing with more 1100's with a wider selection of ammunition brought the same results. Thoughts of cutting, grinding, lightening and springing came and went. There was nothing actually wrong with any of the 1100's tested, only a built-in finite cyclic rate. What next? I know, I'll just sell a couple of 1100's and buy the "world's fastest shotgun." A few weeks passed and one of our local gun shops (in this case davesguns.com) called me with the good news. My new no-excuses, super-duper, wham-bam, special-operations-team-approved Benelli M1 Super 90 was waiting for me, yee haw!

    Benelli M1 Super 90
    To many, the Benelli is the be-all and end-all of shotguns. Known for its reliability, durability and speed, I purchased the "world's fastest cycling shotgun" after a years-long affair with the 1100. Finally, I had found MY shotgun and for a time the Benelli and I got along very well. This particular Benelli was the M1 Super 90 slug model, complete with eight-shot tube extension, side saddle shell carrier, and barrel-mounted rifle sights. This set-up served me well for nearly two years. In 1997, the quest for speed again lifted its ugly head.

    This time the challenge was steel.

    The American Handgunner World Shoot-off Championships set the stage for the Benelli's downfall: more precisely, the man vs. man auto shotgun side shoot. Here I am, trying to qualify for the final four with Jerry Miculek and Bill Vance setting the pace. Both were averaging about two seconds for five poppers.

    In this format, if memory serves, we made four passes on five poppers with the best three runs totaled for score. My first run came in at two seconds and change. I'd better speed up if I want to play with the big boys! On the second pass, the buzzer sounds and the Benelli snaps to my shoulder. The first shell is out the ejection port, and we are cooking now! As the second target is acquired, disaster strikes. My Benelli fails to fire. Yes, I remembered to load the thing and to both release and pull the trigger! As you know, in the heat of competition you don't take time to figure out much. Just get the thing running! So I apply the Benelli equivalent of "tap rack bang."

    Needless to say, I didn't make the cut on that run.

    Going into run three I thought: "I am not out of this yet; I just need two more good runs." This same scenario played out again on my third and fourth runs. Since I was out of the running, I took a little time to see what was happening on the fourth run. It looked like the hammer was following the bolt down on a live round. Must be something wrong with the fire control components, I thought, so I'll just borrow another M1 Super 90 from my buddy Jim Wall. Jim warns me not to "put any stupid in his gun" and with that I plunk down my re-entry fee for another chance at Jerry and Bill. I am ready now; I have in my hands a veteran shotgun that has seen the ranges of Gunsite and top finishes at SOF. If any gun can make the difference, I now posses it. Victory is mine (or at least I will make the cut). Not so fast, powderhead! Again the hammer follows the bolt down on a live round. Sorry Jim, I guess I did "put some stupid" into your gun.

    Back home, I was determined to find out why. Can I be the cause of THIS malfunction? Other types of malfunctions, sure, but THIS one? With the help of a half a dozen M1 Super 90 owners and hundreds of rounds of shot shells I set to work finding out. Could it be the cyclic rate? Benelli's trick shooter had set a record shooting more hand-thrown clays than anyone else, so their gun had to be fast, right?

    Over a year's time, using any M1 S90 that I could borrow (usually at matches), I learned that the Benelli was indeed faster than the 1100, but that I could out-run the Benelli's cyclic rate on demand.

    Using the same videographic techniques that we applied to the 1100, we found the limit for the Benelli: 13 hundredths of a second. That's it. Any faster, and the hammer follows the bolt. Some of the testing I have on video tape documents 11 of the aforementioned hammer follows in 50 rounds fired. For all that fanfare, "the world's fastest shotgun" is one lousy hundredth faster than the Remington 1100.

    If the 13/14 hundredths cyclic rate is virtually the same for both Benelli and Remington, why the difference in the malfunction? Simple, the Benelli disconnect resets before the bolt is closed. The Remington does not. At speeds below .13 second, the hammer follows the bolt down without firing on the Benelli. The Remington just makes you pull the trigger again when the disconnect resets.

    (Editor's note: I asked Jim Wall about his experiences with the Benelli. His ideas reflect Kelley's, but he adds a warning about cocking handles. "I've got timers that will show the minimum cyclic rate as high as .14, especially if you have one of those big cocking handles on. I had one of those, and that's about the time I started having trouble with the cyclic rate. . . Now I'm back to using the little pin that Benelli supplies.")

    The initial reaction of many shooters to this information is, "Who cares? Who really goes that fast?" or "Where would I use that speed?" Practical shooters (and some tactical shooters) are different. This is why I penned my "on the range" experiences. If you KNEW that your pistol stopped working at .13 seconds and your ability exceeded that, you would be at the gunsmith getting it fixed. Why should you expect less from your shotgun? If you worked on a SWAT team, and the Benelli was your main shotgun, wouldn't knowing that you were carrying a gun guaranteed to fail at under .13 second splits give you pause?

    So now what? How do I fix the "world's fastest cycling shotgun?" After much thought, I chose not to. If I were to try, I would start with weight reduction in the reciprocating parts. Springs work in both directions, so changes there don't really help (if a strong spring makes the action close faster, it also makes it open slower). A company called SRM makes an improved cycling kit that may be worth a try.

    So what now? Do I settle for less? How about Browning? What do they have to offer?

    Browning Auto 5
    Way back when, everybody had a Browning Auto 5 for their waterfowl gun. Does it meet the criteria for our games? Let's see: Reliability is job one. This gun is VERY reliable. Much of its reputation came from waterfowl hunting. Stories of freezing cold wet guns being dropped in the muck still coming up shooting are told to this day. Does it possess the attributes of low recoil, good ergonomics, ease of maintenance and reasonable affordability? How about after-market accessories? The Auto 5 scores three out of six. It is reliable, ergonomics are okay, and maintenance? What maintenance? Oil and shoot. Nothing breaks; nearly every part is cut from cast, billet or forged steel. Like the Benelli, it is recoil operated (although the Auto 5 is a long recoil action unlike the Benelli) and does not mitigate recoil as well as a gas-operated gun. With the discontinuance of the Auto 5, prices have gone way up, and accessories are next to non-existent. Nada, zip. Even Choate is discontinuing their magazine extension tube for the Auto 5. Why even talk about it? Because even with the obstacles involved, Auto-5's are faster than and at LEAST as reliable as the Benelli - particularly at top speed.

    The Auto 5 positively re-sets the first half of the trigger return stroke using a pair of opposing hooks - one on the hammer, one on the trigger. Instead of waiting for the fairly passive action of a re-set spring, that hook on the hammer claws the trigger ahead as the hammer re-sets, slapping your finger out of the way if you're too slow letting go. You still need to let go of the trigger for it to fully re-set, but the first half of the process is done mechanically. (Think of it like using solid lifters instead of spring lifters on a car engine.)

    Until I ran across the next shotgun on my list, the Browning Auto 5 proved itself to be faster than the "world's fastest cycling shotgun," leaving the Benelli buried in its empty hulls.

    The New Brownings
    Okay, drum roll please. Will the real world's fastest cycling shotgun please stand up? What? We have two guns standing? How can this be? We can thank the people at Winchester and Browning for this situation. They have unwittingly given us a choice between two "world's fastest cycling shotguns." The Browning Gold and the Winchester Super X2 are both built on the same basic platform, and these guns haul!

    Okay, they go fast, WAY FAST. Do they meet the criteria we have established? Low recoil? Oh yeah! They're gas operated. Good ergonomics? Yes, they feel quick in the hands. Ease of maintenance? So far so good. I have no long-term data, but the gas system was designed with this very thing in mind. As far as gas guns go, these are as simple as you could hope for, at least in terms of number of parts. This goes for the fire control system too. Reasonable affordability? Costs no more than a Benelli. Aftermarket parts? 3gungear.com will make you a slick side saddle for them. Mag extensions are a little harder to come by. Check the websites of Briley.com or Defensiveedge.net.

    Did I mention RELIABILITY??? In addition to my own limited testing, reports from Bennie Cooley indicate that this platform IS reliable. Cooley has won one 3-Gun nationals with it, plus a couple of wins at the North Carolina tactical 3 gun, and the MGM 3 gun.

    Browning Gold
    The Browning Gold is the only "new" self-loader available with speed loading. Here is what that means as described in Browning literature - "with the action open, any load inserted into the magazine is sent directly to the chamber, ready to be fired."

    Like some kind of mechanical magic trick, the moment you let go of the first round stuffed into the magazine tube, the Browning Gold feeds it all the way to the chamber. No messing around loading the chamber, pushing a button, and then flipping the gun to load the mag tube - just load the magazine tube and the gun loads itself! This feature was originally designed for the Browning "Double Automatic" and was quickly applied to the Auto 5; it has been on nearly all Browning self-loaders since.

    Winchester Super X2
    Unbeknownst to many, Browning and Winchester are owned by the same holding company. As a result, the two firms are sharing a lot of information with each other and with FN.

    Winchester's Super X2 is essentially the same gun as the Browning Gold, only with a different set of features. The Winchester does not have the speed-loading feature of the Browning, otherwise the price point would be substantially higher.

    What the Winchester does offer is a ready-to-rock "Practical" configuration! Somebody at Winchester must be a 3 gunner, as this gun is built with us in mind. Sporting a 22" barrel for good handling (complete with Invector chokes) and a factory-installed magazine extension bringing capacity to 8 and 1, this gun is good to go. Standard features also include a synthetic stock and cantilever scope mount. Not leaving the Limited division gunners out, Winchester has fitted an excellent set of rifle sights. The rear one folds down and is dovetailed to the scope mount. The front sight is dovetailed into a nice-looking serrated ramp and has the very popular fiber optic tube or "light pipe" nestled inside. The only thing I would add is a side saddle, and again, 3gungear.com can handle that for you.

    I got a chance to spend a little time (very little) with the Winchester Super X2 and found what may pull me away from my beloved Auto 5. After a few speed drills on three pepper poppers, I was already well pleased with this self-loader's performance. Using 00 Buck loads (does this thing smooth out recoil or what?) I ran a three-popper course with each popper a yard apart and 12 yards down range. From the port arms position I was able to "draw" and knock down all three in just under one second. Considering a reaction and first engagement time of .68, split times between the next two poppers were 12 and 13 hundredths respectively. This is as fast as my Auto 5! At this speed, the Benelli's hammer follows the bolt!

    Idaho state police officer David Neth was kind enough to let me perform this test with his personal Winchester SX2 Practical. He also demonstrated this shotgun's true capability by pulling off some 11 hundredths splits along with a handful of 12's. To top that, he beat my personal record for the fastest five shots. This is a little thing I have been doing since the speed bug hit me. With the timer running you let loose of five rounds as fast as you can, counting the first shot as zero and totaling the remaining four split intervals. My best to date has been 56 hundredths. David amazed the small gathering at a 3 gun match in Winchester, Idaho by firing those five shots in 51 hundredths! The splits were three .13's and one .12. This gun is full auto fast! By the way, this was with Federal 00 buck. No, not the low recoil stuff, this was Federal MAX 2 3/4 Classic.

    So there you have it, a quick overview of a short list of practical self-loading shotguns. All will do the job nicely. Some may fit your needs better than others. Each has its high points and all have their problems. As much as I thought I would not draw any conclusions for you I would like to leave you with this;

    My quest for speed grew out of a desire for reliability. While speed is not everything, you can have that and a reliable shotgun to boot. No matter what gun you use, our game will uncover its weaknesses and shine its attributes. So get out there and see how fast you can go. Go 3 gunning!




    Return to Multigun.com Articles page
     
  2. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    You want speed, try a Remington Model 58. The were predessor to the 1100, many parts interchange. So fast that they would break action bars, 870 stocks and bbls interchange,if you drill gas ports in the 870 bbl.
     
  3. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I know someone who pulled both triggers of a SxS at about the same time. At least it sounded like one shot going "BOOOOOOM". Of course the next two shoots will take a little longer.

    Don
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I own B autos,1100s,A5 and a 50 and 59 Winchester auto. The fastest operating auto I have in expelling three rounds is the model 50/59s. It may be even faster than the one advertised as the fastest, but, it only holds three rounds and no longer made. Hap
     
  5. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    One of Tom Knapp's trick shot videos shows a Benelli getting off 3 shots in the time it takes a Browning Gold to get the 2nd shell into the chamber.


    Luckyman doesn't know what he's talking about. That's the only explanation possible.
     
  6. missed some

    missed some TS Member

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    I like my super X 3 better than the 2.
     
  7. shadow

    shadow Active Member

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    Not an auto, but the fastest was a M-12 in the hands of Herb Parsons. I was fortunate enough to get to see him put on a show many years ago.
     
  8. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    I think before beating up on Luckyman to soon, I believe he was just posting what he found on another site. I've seen this exact write up about 2-3 yrs ago. So it's not new.

    Now, with regards to determining the fastest shotgun, human error needs to be removed from the equation. A gun mounted in a fixture, along with a variable speed mechanical "trigger puller" would be a more accurate way.

    Some of those quick shots claim they can pull, release and then pull the trigger again before the gun can do a full cycle....?????, maybe they're really just trapping the trigger and not fully releasing.

    Doug
     
  9. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

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    It's obvious that you have not read the full article! The Benelli can not physically cycle as fast as the GOLD!! Read the article at a certain point the HAMMER FOLLOWS THE BOLT CAUSING A MISSFIRE! The Benelli in Patrick Flanigans hands would fail to shoot....Hey Krieghoff Krusher LOL! Bobby Fowler won all of his Sporting Clays Championships with his GOLD leaving the Beretta competitors in the dust!!! I thinks I am sensing some jealous that Beretta or any of the other spaghetti guns can't claim they are the fastest! Wake up! Your Beretta is slower than my GOlD and will always be..If the GOLD has been such a failure why hasn't Browning discontinued it...I presented an article with FACTS and if you can't handle the truth go click on another thread!

    BoooHoooo!!!!
     
  10. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    GunDr, they are not "trapping".. I can show you if we cross paths.
     
  11. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

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    You statement that no-one has won anything with a GOLD in modern times is just as ignorant!!! Bottom line any auto over a period of time just like any gun will break...If Bobby Fowlers guns broke all of the time during competitions he would not have one as much as he did with his GOLD...Remember he could have shot any of the Browinings and he chose a GOLD...Now he doesn't shoot an AUTO at all now so what does that tell you? Your right when you say you can't fix stupid and the more you open your mouth the more truth that statement rings true!!!
     
  12. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    The mechanical triggering of a semiauto has been done before. Many years ago, there was an article about doing this with the then current lot of .22 semiautos. They rigged it up and shot them at various speeds until a particular gun couldn't cut the mustard. If I remember right, the .22 with the fastest cycling rate was the Weatherby with something like 1500 rounds per minute. Now a .22 isn't a 12 gauge shotgun by any stretch of the imagination, but it does show that a rig can be built to do the chore. Now someone needs to convince one of the shotgun magazines to fund the work for a very interesting article. Then we will all know which shotgun is really the "fastest". For those of you with a research bent, I think the article was in an early edition of the Gun Digest - say mid-1950's through the 1960's
     
  13. highflyer

    highflyer TS Member

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    Berettas are the most used auto at sporting clays events. I am sure they are good guns. They must be or there wouldn't be so many people shooting them. My personal experience with them hasn't been so good. Of the few I have shot with most have malfunctioned at least once during the shoot.
     
  14. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

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    Here is a list of Championships that Bobby won ALL WITH HIS GOLD! BTW it tells me that Sig is paying him more...Bobby chose the GOLD and won everything you could with it!!! He was not a sheep like all of the Spaghetti Gun shooters..At least the Browning doesn't come with an extra bag of parts like allot of the spaghetti guns! Again! Booohooo! For over 10 + years he won everything with his GOLD leaving everyone else in the dust!!!

    Chew on this list for a while!!!

    CHAMPIONSHIPS


    2005 Texas Challenge Series
    -HOA Champion

    2005 Zone IV Championships
    -HOA Main Event Champion
    -HOA Compak Champion
    -HOA Thursday Prelim Champion
    -HOA Friday Prelim Champion
    -HOA 28 Gauge Champion
    -RU 20 Guage

    2005 World English Sporting Championships
    -Gold Medalist

    2005 All-American Team - Captain

    2005 Texas State Championships
    -HOA 5-stand
    -RU Compak Event
    -RU Prelim Event
    -Ru Main Event

    2005 Browning/Briley World Open
    -HOA Main Event Champion
    -HOA 5-Stand Main Champion
    -HOA 20 Gauge Event Champion
    -HOA Overall Sub Gauge Event Champion

    2005 Mardi Gras Open
    -HOA Prelim Event
    -HOA 12 ga. Event
    -RU Main Event
    -M3 Compak Event

    2005 National Championships
    -HOA National Champion

    2004 American Shooting Centers Club Championships
    -HOA Club Champion

    2004 Mardi Gras Open
    -HOA Main Event Champion
    - RU 20 GA
    - HOA 5-Stand Main Event Champion

    2004 All-American Team

    2004 Browning / Briley World Open
    - HOA Main Event Champion
    - M3 Prelim Event

    2004 Us Open
    - HOA Kemen Cup Champion
    - HOA 5-Stand Main Event
    - M2 Main Event

    2004 National Championships
    -HOA 5-Stand Champion
    -3rd Main Event Champion

    2004 Angle Port Open
    - HOA Main Event Champion
    - HOA Prelim Event Champion
    - RU 5-Stand Main
    - HOA 28 GA Event Champion

    2004 Texas State Championships
    -HOA All Around High Gun Champion
    -HOA 20 Gauge Champion
    -HOA 28 Gauge Champion
    -HOA .410 Bore Champion
    -M1 Texas Challenge
    -RU Main Event Champion

    2003 Browning/Briley World
    -HOA Sub Gauge Event Champion

    2003 All-American Team

    2003 Texas State Championship
    -HOA Main Event Champion
    -RU Prelim Event
    -RU 5-Stand Main Event
    -HOA 20 gauge event
    -HOA Sub Gauge Overall Event

    2003 World English Open
    -M3 Main Event
    -M2 5-Stand Main Event
    -M3 Prelim Event

    2003 US OPEN
    -HOA Prelim Event Champion
    -HOA .410 Bore Event Champion
    -HOA 28 Gauge Event Champion
    -M6 Main Event

    2002 American Shooting Centers Club Champ
    2002 Sporting Team USA

    2002 FITASC Team USA

    2002 All-American Team

    2002 Nationals Champ - HOA in Top Gun Shootout

    2002 National 5-Man State Team Champion

    2002 Browning/Briley World Open
    - HOA Main Event Champion
    - HOA Sporting Prelim Champion
    - HOA 5-Stand Prelim Champion
    - HOA .410 Bore Champion
    - HOA 20 ga. Champion
    - HOA 28 ga. Champion

    2002 Texas State
    - HOA Main Event Champion
    - HOA 5-Stand Prelim Champion
    - HOA 5-Stand Main Champion
    - HOA .410 Bore Champion
    - HOA 20 ga. Champion
    - HOA Overall Sub Gauge Champion

    2001 Zone 6 - HOA Sporting Clays Champ
    2001 American Shooting Centers Club Champ

    2001 TX State - Main RU Champ

    2001 TX State - FITASC Champ

    2001 World English Sporting Clays - RU Champ

    2001 All-American Team - Team Captain

    2001 Sporting Team USA - Team Captain

    2001 Homestead Cup - HOA Champ

    2000 Browning/Briley World Open - HOA Champ

    2000 Nationals Champ - HOA Sporting Clays

    2000 Caribbean Cup [FL] - HOA Champ

    2000 Masters Cup - HOA

    2000 US Open - HOA

    2000 TX State Champ - HOA 5 Stand

    2000 TX State Champ - HOA FITASC

    2000 TX State Champ - HOA Main

    2000 Zone 6 - HOA 5 Stand

    2000 Zone 6 - HOA Sporting Clays

    2000 All-American Team - Team Captain

    2000 Team USA - Sporting Clays

    2000 Team USA - FITASC

    2000 Nationals Champ - HOA in Top Gun Shootout

    2000 Nationals Champ - HOA 5 Stand

    2000 Zone 6 - Small Ga. Champ (28ga, 20ga, .410)

    1999 US Open [MT] - FITASC HOA Champ
    1999 Masters' Cup [NJ] - HOA Champ
    1999 TX State Championship [TX] - HOA Champ
    1999 All-American Team - Team Captain
    1999 World 5-Stand [TX] - HOA Champ
    1999 US Open [MT] - HOA Champ
    1999 Team USA
    1999 English World Sporting Team - Team Captain
    1999 World FITASC [TX] - R.U. Champ

    1998 TX State Championship [TX] - HOA Champ
    1998 World FITASC Team Event - Gold Medalist
    1998 FITASC World [TX] - HOA in Top Gun Shootout
    1998 Great American Champ [MD] - HOA
    1998 FITASC Open [KS] - HOA Champ
    1998 FITASC Nationals [TX] - R.U. Champ

    1997 English Sporting Clays Team - USA's Captain

    1996 TX State Championship [TX] - HOA Champ
    1996 Great American Champ [MD] - HOA

    1995 USA FITASC - Team USA's 1st Team - Member
     
  15. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

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    Oh BTW since Bobby has switched from the GOLD it doen't look like he as done quite as well as when he was using it!!!!
     
  16. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

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    12-Ga. Semi-Auto Sporting Clays Shotguns: Browning Vs. Beretta
    Winning or losing a sporting clays tourney can come down to hitting just one more target than your competitor. Does the Browning Gold Sporting or the Beretta AL 391 Urika give you that edge?

    Here is another one Krieghoff Krusher! LOL! Here is a guy that chose it over your precious Beretta...Again chew on this!!! I will keep them coming if you wish?


    Picking the right tools is a weighty problem for competition shooters who want to rise to the top of their field. 2003 National Sporting Clays Association National Champion Cory Kruse used a customized Browning Gold Sporting shotgun.

    While training, physical ability and desire are major factors in developing a winning combination in sporting clays combination, using the right tool at the right time is also a big element in the equation. If we move past the debate between “two-holers” and “single-barrel shooters” to the subject of semiautomatics, a couple of the most popular shotguns finding favor with competitors are the Browning Gold Sporting and the Beretta AL 391 Urika.

    The two shotguns are both gas operated, designed to reduce recoil while providing a smooth system of automatically loading the firearm to make it ready to fire. Because of this system that utilizes the high-pressure gas produced from firing…
     
  17. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Messages:
    6,667
    So.....now you're flip-flopping and say that you LIKE the Browning Gold??

    I'm confused.
     
  18. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,261
    No, I think lucky hates the gold but is happy it shoots real fast ... that way he can wear it out quickly and get a Beretta.
     
  19. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,667
    Yeah, that's kinda the impression that I'm getting. On one side of his mouth, he says that the GOLD sucks, and on the other he proclaims how fast it is.
     
  20. Luckyman

    Luckyman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,035
    I actually just sold my GOLD to get a Stoeger! Now I can buy 4 of them for the same price as any other Auto out there and have 4 back-up guns in case one breaks! LOL!!!
     
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