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Why you should use a turkey choke for trap

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr A C Jones, Nov 26, 2011.

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  1. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    At the end of this thread (Blaser handicap barrel pattern):

    http://www.trapshooters.com/webtv/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=269469&Messages=107

    I posted a picture of a 25-yard pattern from a turkey gun. It shows a pattern tighter than anything I have seen from my guns. Out of curiosity, I entered the pellet holes as best I could to give the analysis below:

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/ithacaSouthTargetAsPsp.png">

    The key number is the caculated pattern diameter - lower left in the picture, with a value of 7.36-inches. To show qualitatively how tight this pattern is, the next picture shows a typical 25-yard pattern from one of my full choke guns (backbored barrel too!):

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/mk38FullScaledTo25yards.png">

    The next figure shows the 20-yard to 50-yard performance of four of my guns (black lines). The red star shows the turkey choke pattern. To get the same small pattern diameter, my guns would have needed to be about 10 yards closer to the paper (green and blue in the figure). In effect, the turkey gun pushes the patterns 10 yards further downrange, that is, any given pattern spread occurs 10 yards later relative to my normal guns.

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/fig41CropMarkupIthacasouth.png">

    The graph above can also help to show the effect of pushing a pattern out by an additional 10-yards at typical trap target distances. The purple annotations on the graph indicate the pattern spread at 42-yards - my assumed distance for a long trap shot, which from the graph for my guns is a pattern diameter of approx. 31.5-inches. This is the typical pattern spread of a good performing typical gun at trap distances. The 10-yard advantage of the turkey gun means the equivalent distance is 32-yards and the pattern spread from the graph is approx. 20.5-inches.

    The next picture shows a simulated 31.5-inch pattern with the gaps equivalent to an edge-on clay highlighted, and the next picture shows the same but with the pattern spread equivalent to that of the turkey gun:

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/simuatedPattern31_5inchSpread.png">

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/simuatedPattern20_5inchSpread.png">

    (You can play around with the patterns and see how variable they are via the link at the top of this note.)

    It should be pretty obvious which is the best pattern. But just to drive home the difference, look at the hit probability figures in the 10 and 20 inch circles (bottom of the pictures). In the right hands, the turkey gun would give a much higher score, and a mean A MUCH HIGHER SCORE.

    So, that's why you should use a turkey choke(*).

    Andrew.

    (*) based on the claims and selected patterns of the turkey shooters.
     
  2. Sportshot

    Sportshot Active Member

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    Andrew, does the gun recoil more with a turkey choke than a modified choke?
     
  3. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Shot my first turkey yesterday.... scared the crap
    out of everyone in the frozen food section.
    It was awesome
    Hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving!!!
     
  4. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    It would probably recoil less because the greater constriction would probably slow the shot slightly more. I'm of the view that the constriction must slow the shot because the constriction is a partial barrier - you can feel the difference in resistance with a cleaning brush or pushing a wad through (or not as the case may be). A lot of people will disagree with this, but I just can't see it any other way.

    Andrew.
     
  5. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    smsnyder, That reminds me of the railway locomotive manufacturer using a Boeing test method that used chickens to simulate bird strikes on windscreens. It's a funny (supposedly true) story if you haven't heard it. The loco' manufacturer fired the chicken at ~150mph and were "surprised" at the result; the chicken passed through the windscreen, through the drivers seat, the bulk head, and buried itself in the engine block. They wrote to Beoing about the validity of the test. Boeing replied, "Defrost the chicken first".

    Andrew.
     
  6. 4th. down

    4th. down Active Member

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    But Andrew, in your book on patterns @ 40 yds. there was not that much difference in Lt. Full, Full and Extra Full. What gives now for you to change?

    As usual, thanks for your work and publishing.
     
  7. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    4th. down, That's the $64,000 question. If you go to the thread above (where the $64,000 is also posed), you'll see Neil posts results from a couple of turkey chokes he bought and they perfomed very similar to the LF, F, and or XF from any other normal gun. To be honest, that's a bit of a bugger, because now we are still all left wondering how to get those super tight patterns. What I have shown above is just how beneficial they are . . . it's just a question of getting them now.

    Andrew.
     
  8. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    One big problem with turkey chokes... They can give ragged patterns with soft lead shot. The soft pellets get squished and flattened, and some even get turned into cubes. Premium hard lead shot is better.

    If you really want consistent patterns, try steel shot through a full choke (one rated for steel choke). I know trapshooters hate steel shot, but it certainly won't distort in a choke.
     
  9. warpspeed

    warpspeed Member

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    Dr. Jones,

    What was the actual constriction ? "Turkey" chokes seem to come in a variety of diameters.
     
  10. icelander36

    icelander36 Member

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    DR A C Jones, Neil did his patterns with a turkey choke. Well NOT ALL turkey chokes are restricted the same. His if I am not mistaken were .050 0r .055 restriction. My turky choke is .075 restriction. Compareing apples to oranges??maybe. I tried to get into the page to input my pattern but it will not open for me. Just being a layman and no degrees or much more than a high school education Maybe no one will take what I say for more than an old mans rambling thoughts. All I know is the proof of the end results, BROKEN birds. We shoot from 40 plus yards from the far edge of the trap house and I get one heck of a lot of seconds, third and fourth shot breakes. Enough to put me into the money more than most others I shoot with. I can email you a picture of one of my pattern so you can tear it apart or what ever you would like to do. I hope both you and Neil keep up with your posts as I really enjoy reading them and trying some of the things you both tell us about. Lyle
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Andrew, I don't know if there is such a thing in the UK since, according to the London Times, your football fans like to get real - not just virtual - Arsenal or United blood on their boots, but we have what's called "fantasy football," which, if you can believe it, is said to be more popular than -how can I say this? - the "real" thing.

    You have the perfect software to start a whole internet industry. Rather than requiring these guys to invest in short measuring tapes or rigging up mirror systems to outfox laser rangefinders, all they will have to do is select, for example, a "stock-appearing-Ithaca" from a menu, then the ammo, the weather, maybe apply a "nervousness" correction and fire some virtual shots, thereby maybe winning some chips they can then use in the Texas Hold'em tournaments held on this very site. It sounds like a lot of fun and how's Inland Revenue ever going to find out?

    Neil
     
  12. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Blessed is the group that can put them all in a 20 circle. Do I hear a Amen?:)

    Ajax
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Lyle, I moved the thread up, it's called

    "Subject: My new Blaser F3 Handicap Bbl Pattern"

    and has a couple of added tests along the lines of what you suggested.

    Neil
     
  14. icelander36

    icelander36 Member

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    Ajax,

    You know me well enough to know how often I am winning at at the money shoots. It is your shot that I am useing. Isn't it about 40 yards to the trap machine when we shoot from under the roof at Cowlitz? I know it is about that at least when we shoot at evergreen from the fence. I will email you one of the patterns or even better bring it to winlock next time it is my turn to drive.

    Amen Lyle
     
  15. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Yes Lyle, it's right at 40 yards from the cover. We're actually throwing a faster target to keep it the air longer on the four gun shoots. No one has complained and I haven't checked the speed with the radar gun for a while.

    I hope you've taken your wife out to dinner lately? Just tell her a guy at the club named Jack bought this nice meal for her! :)

    Ajax
     
  16. icelander36

    icelander36 Member

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    Jack,

    Judy said she didn't know who to thank for the nice dinner Wed. night.
    Thank you Jack from Judy HEE HEE. Lyle
     
  17. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Dr. Jones,


    Please pull this down immediately. For decades now, the Big Dogs have been blindly pledging allegiance to Wilkinson/Eyster/Fill in the Blank, and taking our money handily in the process.


    If they could just get beyond that blind allegiance, and absorb what you're saying here (ie, something available for $34.95 at Gander Mtn will outperform $400 of work from a "barrel whisperer"), I shudder to think how much worse they'll shred our butts.


    On second thought...don't take it down. The howls of horror from the old-fart 3-hole cranks ("Used to be, Joe Average could score a 4-figure check for a 96!") are worth it.
     
  18. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Brian, When trying to get the best long distance patterns, hard shot is a given. The chap who posted that really tight 75-ft pattern used Win AAs, Neil generally uses hard Feds (although he didn't state what he used in the turket choke case).

    I did try steel through a full choke. It patterned tighter than steel through a half choke, but less tight than good lead pellets through a full. Given its lower retained velocity, in my test case, steel shot shells performed much worse than lead ones.

    Ajax, are you talking about getting all the pellets in a 20-inch circle, or keeping aiming errors within that limit? If it's the latter, the best shots do achieve this; they must do to get the scores they get. Generally, for a good shooter, 90%+ pellets inside the 30-inch circle at target distance is the optimum pattern spread. That's why something better than "normal" chokes (which give ~75%-80% PE) promises such an improvement.

    Andrew.
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Andrew, want tight patterns? Try some of the ugliest shot to ever grace a shotshell, ever, "Hevi-Shot", the stuff is amazing! End result is great though!

    Hap
     
  20. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Hap, I tested HeviShot and its performance was ReallySh1t. I suppose one shouldn't tar all HeviShot the same. In the early days HeviShot looked like bird droppings whereas the stuff I tested looked like this:

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/fig101cropdrt.png">

    . . . which is clearly formed in some way. Anyway, when it passed through the choke it tended to fragment so you lost some of the pellets and the remaining pellets didn't pattern all that tight either.

    Andrew.
     
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