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Why should ATA targets cost a lot more?!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by spitter, Feb 12, 2012.

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  1. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Well... continuing the theme of how to increase participation - with many commenting on how the state of the economy is hitting wallets... when the economy rolls, we overlook or go with the flow and can afford a little padding in expenses, BUT when times are lean, many are watching every penny...

    So, I ask - WHY do ATA targets seem to cost so much more than practice targets at many local shoots?! Some clubs offer a volume discount if you shoot a few hundred in a marathon, but the rates are still more than practice, and for what?!

    I get that big tourneys may need to cover labor and the incidentals of providing a venue capable of hosting a trophy shoot for 100 folks or better over a full day... am I the only one asking?!

    We manage to cover our costs on each practice bird thrown... so why gouge our shooters for a Targets-Only program?!

    Jay
     
  2. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Spitter, In a word, COSTS. As a salesman, you know that. Increased target, power, mailer, maintenance costs and much higher minimum wages for scorekeepers and office help, To name just a few.

    Here in Phoenix we pay $5.50 per round of practice. Our retail target costs are certainly not the highest in the Land but probably higher than a lot of smaller trap clubs using volunteers for trap personel.

    We pay about $30 per hundred for registered ATA targets so about $8.00 goes for tropies and fees both state and ATA fees. There is sales tax included in the target cost, as well.

    Where are you willing to cut to shoot registered targets using this as a model? Respectfully, Barry.
     
  3. 5 Stand Dan

    5 Stand Dan Active Member

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    Quit your whining, try sporting at $70-100 per 100. If you enjoy trap, have a good time, it is priced relatively cheap.
     
  4. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Business 101

    Curt
     
  5. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    5SD - first of all I don't whine... I'm asking a direct business question and this is not about the difference in the costs of Sporting v. Trap and using (1) trap vs. (8-10) traps over a walking course... plus I can shoot a couple area top-notch courses that I'm not a member of, and walk in for $40/100.

    Barry... this is my point - at $5.50/rd or $22.50/100, is Phoenix covering its nut (making money) to throw a 100 practice targets in 45 minutes?! Forget trophy shoots - lets focus on the targets-only... the scorer expense, admin expenses, utility and maintenance expenses + aren't the folks paying sales tax on practice birds also?! OK, now throw in the daily fees... @$3.00/100 +/-...

    What costs $5/100 more for targets-only... that's my question?! If we're asking about what is impacting the number of registered birds, in addition to the number of member bodies, we have to address (at least in this economic environment) why the identical "BIRDS" for TOs need to cost 20% or more than practice?!

    If we go to a tourney and have trophies, obviously there are additional expenses...

    This inquiring mind wants to know...

    Best regards,

    jay
     
  6. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Spitter: I guess things really vary across the country. Although things have dropped off considerably since I started, registered shoots aren't usually one trap operations around here. Usually 4 to 6 traps, plus a practice trap. That means more labor, scorers. trap loaders etc than on days when the club is just open for practice. Usually there is a paid cashier. Maybe you can cover the added manpower from volunteers, maybe you can't. Even when using volunteers, I think most look at it that they are doing the work for the club, not for trapshooting in general. Their intention is so the club can make a little money.

    If "ATA targets" always meant a single trap, no trophies etc I guess you could do it close to practice costs. But also keep in mind practice doesn't always pay its weight at all clubs. Some have cheap practice rates and other revenue helps to offset. Registered shoots entail mostly nonmembers and there isn't an incentive to subsidize costs with other Club revenue from members.

    Simply, a registered shoot is a much bigger job than just being open for practice. Those 2 or 3 guys at the club that do everything put in at least 2 days of work to get ready for a single day shoot. Loading more houses than are generally used, making sure the seldomly used traps are in order, cleaning up the grounds, cutting grass, getting the kitchen set up when it might not normally be open, lots of things.

    We keep hearing about $30 ATA targets here, but first they aren't "ATA" charges, it is the club charging, and I don't think it's always that high since there are tons of smaller shoots that aren't that expensive. Still much more than practice, but that is to be expected, at least to me.

    I guess in the end, they are more expensive because they are looked at as a big job, and the club expects to make some money on it.
     
  7. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    We have a volunteer run club. Practice targets are $4 per 25 and we will probably charge $23 to $25 per 100 for registered targets this coming season.

    IMHO you need to look beyond the short term costs of targets and maintenance. These registered shoots for our club are raising funds to replace our machines, voice release, etc. and make improvements in our club. I also feel that it isn't worth while for us to hold a registered shoot unless there is a profit to the club. There is lots of work to do to host a shoot and keep things running. If all you make is practice dollars, why go to all the extra work? Bill Malcolm
     
  8. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    I guess that your question is, "should a shooter not playing any options pay less that a shooter who does?" This is a two tier pricing. Not a bad policy.

    What about a shooter who plays no money options but still wants to be eligible for a trophy - should he pay a different price? This would be three tier pricing. Still not too bad. The point is to be creative in these tough times and think "out of the box". We need to explore MORE of thes idea in order to update our sport and grow participation.
     
  9. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    If you shoot 200 targets @ a club that I shoot at the cost is $45.00---these are registered targets .

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  10. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    870/Bill:

    You both bring up valid points... everyone's operation is different... I recognize that, BUT that was the reason for my inquiry - if clubs are covering their operating at practice $$ levels, and offering non-trophy programs at a SUBSTANTIAL premium - why?!

    Some clubs underprice their practice rounds by using "dues" dollars to offset and from that perspective, I fully understand why non-members (again, all have to be priced equally - sans jrs.) need to be charged a higher price for their registered targets... although I have always believed that every function within a club/range operation should be its own "profit-center"...

    Maybe simple, but if you're offering whatever service, it should support itself... even down to my coffee, I know what a cup costs, add in creamer, sweetner, the plastic stir, styro cup and water - yes, running a club should be "fun" but ultimately it is a business concern.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Jay
     
  11. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Spitter. Your being disingenuous. Your thread isn't about pricing at all. It's provacatively anti ATA or anti registered shooting. Simple solution - shoot more practice or organize some registered target days with fewer ammenities. BTW. $5.50 times four is $22. not $22.50.

    I suggest that you should investigate the costs and come up with a plan to make registered shooting cheaper. Where/how are you going to cut your costs.
     
  12. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    Personally, I don't think spitter is being untruthful and nothing he said could reasonably be construed as being "provacatively anti ATA or anti registered shooting". Such rhetoric could however be considered disengenuous, IMHO.
     
  13. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Spitter, I guess my question is what makes you think a lot of clubs are having "1 trap registered shoots" with no trophies and charging substantial premiums? That would sound odd to me.

    As I stated, registered shoots cost more around here because they cost more to put on, and as Bill stated they are, or were (at least around here), a chance for a club to make some money. I don't know of any clubs making a bunch of cash off registered shoots, actually it's just the opposite where more clubs are wondering if it is worth the effort.
     
  14. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    2 make $$$$


    Why else???!!!
     
  15. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, Galt. Just more anti ATA pot stirring from someone that wont answer a simple question. Spitter says we should be able to shoot ATA registered for 20% cheaper and I asked him where he would cut costs to get to that number.

    Jay has said that he's a salesman here before and if that's true then he knows about costs and their effects on selling price points. He's a big boy and he can answer for himself.

    No one said anything about lying but you and you're one of the most abusive and negative posters on this site.
     
  16. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    I smell a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black- LOL.

    johngalt_2011_120636.jpg


    Not to be argumentative, but the pot also seems to have me confused with don.
     
  17. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    Our club routinely throws ATA targets for 3/4 the rate of the larger clubs, and yes, this profit is excellent. However, it is volunteer labor.
     
  18. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    I guess in a business sense you could walk down the street and go by 2 auto parts stores. I bet in most cases the same part would be different prices.

    Why is that? Why can't they be the same world wide?

    I guess we need to ask the Shadow, because only the Shadow knows!!
     
  19. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    We have several nice local clubs that charge over $10.00 per round so over $40.00 per hundred for non- member practice. I can shoot their registered targets for $30.00 per hundred thereby getting the opportunity to shoot these clubs at a savings of $10.00 per hundred when shooting registered.

    When I started, practice targets were $15.00 per hundred and registered targets were $12.00 per hundred so not much has really changed for my area.

    Of course members will usually pay less for practice if you want to shoot in one or two places where you hold memberships, but what fun is that?

    We also have a nice local club that charges $18.00 per hundred registered marathon that seems to get more and more of my business lately. I believe they charge $5.50 for practice rounds so registered is a little cheaper there too. When you throw in ATA and state fees, it does swing things a little in one direction or other.

    I just don't see that "ATA "Targets" cost a lot more?!" in my area.

    Bob
     
  20. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Many of us who earned our way back to the 27 didn't do it with "cheap and easy yardage." Unless you call 97's and 99's at handicap "cheap and easy", please stick to the subject of the cost of ATA targets.

    It's very easy to pick apart the ATA on this site. They typically don't respond to beauty shop chit chat. In your opinion, if there's so much wrong with the ATA that needs fixing....please feel free to run for office.

    Cost of ATA registered targets is really not a profit center. Check the cost of a case of White Flyers, check the cost of club liability insurance, check the cost of workers comp insurance, pat trap maintenence, scorers, loaders, admin personel, club house and grounds maintenence, state and county taxes....and the list goes on.

    I would invite you to try to throw ATA targets for the sum of $22. Your club would be closed in less than 1 target year or you'd come around and get a grip on the real cost of staying in business.
     
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