1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

WHY SCORES CONTINUE TO GO UP ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by senior smoke, Feb 8, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,560
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    HELLO:
    I was looking at some trap and field magazines from the 60's, and noticed that handicap and doubles events were sometimes won with scores of 92. at first i thought must have been a windy bad weather day. the further i looked the scores on a whole were just lower than today's, way lower. i was talking to a few shooters at the area club this weekend and asked them what is the difference from scores from that time to the present? here are a few reasons that were given. some felt the adjustable stock was the reason for the increased scores. i believe although adjustable stocks make it easier to change one's poi, most of us added mole skin or duct tape. it did the same thing, it changed the poi.

    some felt adjustable ribs? years ago one would take there gun and bend the barrel, does the same thing. one guy said years ago the guns were not as good? mule muffins to that. in some ways the guns were better than todays high priced junk on the market.

    could it be barrel work, lengthening the forcing cone, choke tubes? yes forcing cone work can get more shot inside a 30" circle , along with less recoil, and choke tubes can give you an ideal choke constriction for certain games, but when you think of it, we are talking trevia here. the great Frank Little used to say choke constriction, maybe 1 target in 1,000?

    what about recoil devices? yes today there are expensive recoil devices, years ago we had the edwards recoil reducer, or just added plain old weight in the stock.

    in my opinion these are the two biggest factors why scores are higher today. years ago the top shots usually did not offer shooting tips and tell shooting secrets of what works for them. you basically had to shoot thousands of rounds and eventually the light bulb would go on inside your head and your scores would go up. today, if you have the money, you can have the greatest shooters in the game hold a group shooting clinic, or individual clinic. these clinics seem to really help alot of shooters.

    the other reason i feel scores of today are higher is because we as shooters have now seen great scores actually shot and we now believe great scores can be attainable. look at the HOA scores of today, as an example. do you remember when a score of 400 out of 400 was just a pipe dream? or ever thinking a score of 100 was possible in doubles? once it was done, other shooters started shooting them too, why, because they now knew this score was really attainable.

    What do you think the reason scores are so much higher today than years past?
    just something to think about.
    steve balistreri
     
  2. colonel klink

    colonel klink Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    614
    Location:
    Illinois
    While all the reasons you listed are certainly valid I would add to that the improvements made in ammunition & reloading components. Back in the 60's I loaded paper hulls with card wads. Then shells like the AA came on the scene along with one piece plastic wads with a protective shot cup. JMO Colonel
     
  3. glenn mcleod

    glenn mcleod Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    528
    Except for a select few 400 out of 400 is still a pipe dream. All the new equipment and good teachers is the big reason. Also people are now shooting guns that actually fit them and shoot loads that don't pound the hell out of them. Everyone is just more knowledgeable about the whole game. JMHO Glenn
     
  4. Post  2

    Post 2 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    468
    Two hole targets, elemination of hand pulls, speed guns, RX prescription shooting glasses, pastic wads physical condition of shooters and the availability of free time and dispossible income. Post-2
     
  5. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,560
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    you all bring up some good reasons. ammunition is alot better today. as an example, an old time shooter once gave me and another friend of mine a full case of federal paper reloads that he had from the early 60's. my friend had just shoot a 100 straight at an ata shoot at waukesha gun club and i had a 96. we went to the practice trap and shot a box of these reloads, i had a 18, and my friend who just had a 100 in the event shot a 23? was it the shells?

    two hole targets- this is also a very valid reason. remember for 1 year when the ata went back to the 3 hole target? shooters that made the 27 yard line on 2 hole targets were suddenly taking yardage reductions in my area of the country.

    elimination of hand pulls- i do believe this also has helped scores go up.
    steve
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Everything concerning our sport has been improved on beginning in 1965. Guns, ammo, high antimony shot, one piece plastic wads, specialized trap guns, voice calls, traps that throw less tough angles at the limit switch ends, adjustable this n thats, trap clinics put on by the best of the best etc. etc.

    With all those vast improvements added to an easier angle and slower target is it any wonder that scores have gone up? Higher averages and perfect scores?Tougher angles coupled with speed is a shooters enemy, distance is the shotguns enemy. Our leadership seems to have forgotten that part when changing the rules when past changes said to futher handicap the most proficient shooters in the game! The skeet organization also changed their format to an easier target and had to come up with a different shoot-off format for never ending ties!! I think we've followed suit in trap shooting and it shows.

    Hap
     
  7. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,038
    I think that in the next few years, we are going to see a even much smaller group of shooters that will compete for the top spots in Trap and Skeet. Cost is going to become a factor. Right now $20.00 for 100 practice targets + Ammo, and I see no point in reloading 12 GA. For skeet I load 28, and .410 which is the only way to go for practice.

    During the shooting season my practice is the Trap League at Sparta, I shoot 50 targets on Thursday evening and then go to a shoot on Saturday or Sunday, I shoot the Double, Singles and Handicap. Lucky for me I have a gun that fits and 20 years of skeet shooting behind me so my scores are respectable.

    I hope to practice some this spring, but until the weather breaks I have no desire to go out in the snow and shoot at a clay target.

    Bottom line, I think we are going to see fewer perfect scores from fewer individuals who have the disposable income to continue to practice.

    Ronbo
     
  8. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    An old nieghbor of mine won the Montana State Doubles Championship in 1957 with a 91 x 100, & looking down the list I notice most of the Dbls Championship scores were in the low 90's up until about the early 1970's.
    Maybe we have better ammunition now, dunno'? As I recall, Harvey reloaded his shells and he used felt & fiber wads back then before the advent of modern one-piece plastic shotcup wads. Maybe they threw tougher targets back then too?

    John C. Saubak
     
  9. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,043
    Voice calls, target presentation and knowledge.
     
  10. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,505
    I have a little different take on ammunition than most I think the availability of 1 oz. and lower recoil loads along with sliding recoil reducers have improved scores I know they have mine,and gun fit has also helped but as far as voice calls go bad pulls bothered me less when we pulled by hand cause I was expecting to get one once in awhile.Jerry
     
  11. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,560
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    idsfarms:
    numerous friends of mine shoot 1 oz loads in practice, not in competition. they are real nice to shoot, but some of us just hate having a competitor using 1/8 oz more of extra shot. if truth be known, if you can't break a target using 1 oz of shot, i doubt you would have broke the same target using 1 1/8 oz. like frank little once said, trevia at best.
    steve
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    I cannot think of any sport where the performances have not improved over the last 50 years. Some of us may even remember the time when the experts said that running a mile in four minutes was not possible. Once we see that someone can do better in a sport, we gain confidence that we can do it too.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    This is no more complicated then voice pulls. People could get bad pulls with 1,2,3 or 4 hole targets. The easier targts combined with far better pulling"ON AVERAGE" is why the higher scores. Same reason that nobody plays the money anymore. If you don't have a handicap average of 96 or better your chance of winning a handicap at a large shoot is nearly zero and only slightly better at a small shoot. Most hanicaps are won with a 98 or better. Why would you bet that you you could shoot 4 targets over your average on command? That is what you would have to do if you had a 94 average. Jeff
     
  14. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,505
    Senior smoke I agree with you on the 1oz.loads,also with it's all in a guys head but the mental part is a big part of the game,but even if you just practice with them your less likely to form a bad habit or start lifting your head because your gettin popped.Jerry
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    SuperXJeff- How many shooters have a handicap average of 96 or better. In fact, how many average 94?

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. mkstephen

    mkstephen Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    675
    Location:
    Middletown, Indiana
    One element everyone has left out is the automatic traps. Pat-Traps have done wonders in throwing consistent legal targets if so set.


    When we had hand-set targets the setter would get tired and place the target above the peg, on the peg, or even below the peg.


    Also some setters (very few) would try to set impossible targets. I have personally overheard a setter getting ready to go out and set state "If they think they are great shots wait until they try to shoot my targets!" When he did even Earl Scripture couldn't hit the doubles that this setter set.


    One issue today the targets are set a lot higher than they were in the '80's. The rule then was 48 to 52 yards with a height setting of 8 to 12 feet with 9' preferred. Today its 49 to 51 yds with a height setting of 8 to 10 feet with a preferred setting of 9' to 9 1/2'.


    Several clubs that I have shot at are now using a 9 1/2' 'T' bar. If the target is set to go above and miss the 'T' bar you are shooting at close to a 10' target.


    I believe Pat-Traps, voice call releases, and two hole targets made most of the difference. Also shooters are shooting a lot more targets than in the past.


    Michael Stephenson - AA-26.5-AA
     
  17. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,126
    Better shells, Better guns, voice calls, 2 hole targets, and Machines are set up to throw higher targets lately. Also, there are still alot people with enough money that they shoot a boat load of targets in a year. I know at least 10 shooters who don't bother shooting practice cause they shoot registered targets all year round.

    Pat, I carry a 92 average @ 27 yards and I have not won a handicap event in 3 years @ Mason or Cardinal. Jeff is right, you have to shoot a 98 minimum, and most times a 99 to win a handicap at a big shoot. Great competition.

    Last year I shot a 97 @ Cardinal, but a 27 yarder quite older than I (he was 75 I believe) kicked my butt with a 99! I was happy for him.
     
  18. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Orange targets, two hole fluffers, voice releases and $10,000 guns-custom fitted of course with stocks that cost more than most entry level guns.

    Pat, the only shooters who carry 94+ Handicap averages are the ones who win most of the Handicap events!!
     
  19. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,294
    Another possible factor is the targets themselves. Greater uniformity allowing a more predictable flight path, easier breaking targets allowing a one or two BB hit to make a visible chip, better paint schemes all play a part in addition to the other things listed in this thread. For night shooting you can also list improved lighting as a factor.
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Pat Ireland once again Pat you seem to ignore the obvious in favor of what you wish were true.

    "SuperXJeff- How many shooters have a handicap average of 96 or better. In fact, how many average 94?"

    Well Pat I can't tell you how many had a 94 average. I can tell you that in percentages compiled and put on these threads by Pocatello on 4/3/2009 using figures from the 2008 target year from a spreadsheet he got from Neil Winston.

    His figures said, "The 27 yard shooters are much different than all other yardage groups. Almost 42% of them average at least .9000. In no other yardage group do even 20% average at least .9000. When one considers that the trigger point for a reduction is .89 or .90 depending on the zone, this is striking."

    That would suggest that Jeff although his percentages are a bit high is still more in the ball park than out of it. Wouldn't you say BTW at that time there were 24, 27yd shooters that had a 95 average and I believe only one that wasn't on the 27.

    Bob Lawless
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.