1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Why not just pay the Winner??

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by $$$SHTR, Sep 14, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. $$$SHTR

    $$$SHTR Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    784
    After reading Trap 2's column in this months On Target, I pulled out some of this years programs from the local shoots to see which ones I might try to attend next year. All in all, the programs stink! You would think that trapshooters are in a league with the pee-wees. Everything is paid down so far, nobody wins anything. Here's and example of what I mean. Keep in mind, these programs are for small 3-6 trap clubs with usually about 9-12 squads shooting.

    Event 1 100 singles 4 classes
    Event fees $ 3.00
    Targets and trophies $25.00
    $9.00 from each entry will be used to create a purse divided equally between the classes paid 50/30/20 high gun.

    This looks great on the surface, but let's look closer. With an average of 9 squads (45 shooters) that's 11.25 shooters per class. 45 shooters X $9.00 equals $405 divided by 4 (classes) equals $101 per class. $101 X 50% equals $50.50, 30% equals $30, and 20% equals $20.00. Remember, it costs $28.00 plus shells to play, (roughly $50.00). The class winner broke even, everyone else lost. Also, 2 things should be noted. First, they are trying to pay 12/45 shooters, or 26 percent of the shooters, (pee-wee league). Second, each class is given an equal share of the total purse verses each class shooting for their own money. Why should someone in a class that usually has 3-4 shooters get the same as a class that usually has twice that many shooters?? (pee-wee)

    How it should be at small clubs: $9.00 creates a purse
    3 classes.
    Each class shoots for their own money.
    100% high gun (winner gets $135).

    Event 2, 100 handicap targets: same $9.00 per entry creates a purse. But the program pays out 50/30/20 to 3 yardage groups. That's paying 9/45 shooters in a handicap event, (pee-wee league). Again, no one wins anything. The way it should be: (it is handicap, everyone shooting from their known ability) The same $9.00 creates a purse, paid out 50/30/20 high gun. The handicap winner would get $200, runner-up $120, and third place $80. This will make it worth shooting the event.

    As Trap 2 stated in his column, the costs have made it so each of us must look at what shoots we wish to attend. The clubs who wish to play pee-wee trap will not get my money. The cost are the same at clubs who play real trapshooting, ie, pay the winner.

    Tomas
     
  2. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    Go be a professional golfer if you want to win money.
     
  3. BIGbill

    BIGbill TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    77
    OK. Do what yo want to do. It's America for now.

    BIll
     
  4. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,163
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Thomas,

    If you want to play where they pay one place high gun just send your money to Leo, he is going to beat you anyway.

    jim brown
     
  5. perazzi03

    perazzi03 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    77
    if you pay just the winner, chances are 40 out of the 45 will not play the money, so in the end there will be no money in the pot to make it worth while.
     
  6. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,226
    I think the solution should be. A buy in for your class/yardage group. Nothing to do with fees or added money. Just the shooters putting up $$$. If you think your in the hunt to win. Get the top shooters putting up 50/100 into a winner takes all pot. I always try to get Side pots on our league shoots. Most opt not to play even the best shooters? If you really want to have a chance at any money you need to go to larger shoots play all the options and shootem all. The return on investment is, lets just say low. I spent about 1200 on fees and targets this year and luckily did ok by getting about 700 back. My best check was for 225.00.
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,881
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    Most people do not know what "high gun" means. That includes a lot of clubs. A true high gun purse would state terms like 1 money for each 5 (or 6, or whatever) shooters.

    Your explanation is descriptive of a percentage purse, not a high gun purse. Also the usual ties divide function should be clarified.

    Art Blatt's book had an excellent section on purses and options. Now, if the dirty dog who failed to bring it back would surface..............

    HM
     
  8. $$$SHTR

    $$$SHTR Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    784
    To clarify to stated program, the club has decided to use the $9.00 per entry instead of any trophies. It is NOT an option and all who shoot must play. I just think if we want to attract more shooters to the game, losing when you win is not the way. It doesn't take long to figure out this is just crazy, I just beat X number of guys, and I still don't get back my entry fees. Also, there are no (big dogs) up here to worry about.

    50/30/20 high gun is paid out as follows: 1 96 gets 50%, 2 95's share the 30% and 20%, and 94's and below are out of luck. If there were 3 96's they would share all monies. If it were a percentage pay out, 1 96 gets 50%, 2 95's share 30%, and a 94 would get the remaining 20%. As you can see, the 94 was rewarded more than the 95's and in my way of thinking this is just not right. Never should a lower score recieve more than a higher score, (except the Lewis) which is designed to reward the lower scores.

    I'm not sure what an "H" has to do with anything??

    Tomas
     
  9. Smiley

    Smiley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    148
    Its a amazing that most shooters seem to have no idea that their club should make a profit.After all donations will replace equipment,pay the rates,power etc,get real people good facilties cost dollars to maintain,improve and run.There can only be one highgun and thats it,the rest are also runs as for purse money what is put in per class gets paid out in that class.If you want to play in the big time go shoot live Pidgeons as the wagers and prizes can run into thousands.
     
  10. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,881
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    The answer to the question is:

    Because your shoot would only have 3 squads instead of 15.

    HM
     
  11. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,889
    Next time you go to a shoot, just walk up to the counter and ask them to write you out a check.

    "Why not just pay the W(H)iner"
     
  12. Smiley

    Smiley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    148
    Hi people I see we are awake I'm sitting here in Brisbane Australia at 11 AM Sunday in 80 F.
     
  13. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,146
    Everybody likes to think that, if they have a good day, they may win a little piece. That keeps them coming. Kind of like the Powerball.

    Bob
     
  14. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    291
    Out of curiosity $$$shtr, how many wins have you had in the last 6 months and what were they for?
     
  15. $$$SHTR

    $$$SHTR Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    784
    Cherokee Kid,

    This is not about how many times I have won or for which event. I've donated more than most people win. This thread asked the hard question challenging the status quo of, "because that's how we do it". When I ask club shooters to try registered events, I always get the, "why, so I can pay 3 times more than I do now and if I win break even". The number of shooters at local events are down. If we continue to keep our heads in the sand, thinking everything is okay, the numbers could go below a recovery point, causing clubs to close, and once they close, it's very unlikely in todays enviroment to ever get another one to open.

    So, call me a whiner if you wish. I'm just trying to help the sport. There has to be an incentive to spent the money to practice, enter the event, and win the top prize, trophy or money, for any new people to join the sport.

    It seems as though most people want to compete, but are afraid of the better shooters. The programs reward 2nd and 3rd place as much as the real winner. The program writers control the shoots. I've seen a local club's shoots go from as many as 25 squads down to 4 squads at the last shoot. It would seem to me that the way things are being done is not "what every one wants". 21 squads of people decided to do something else that day. Unfortunately, most people won't voice any opinion, just won't go back to that club.

    What is the most popular type of program at your clubs? Please put some on here so we can get ideas for a better program.

    Tomas
     
  16. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,881
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    I understand your desire to improve things. However your idea is flawed. If a hundred people compete in an event, there are 99 non winners. It doesn't take a high IQ to figure out the odds are 99-1 or greater(because of ability) against you.

    the chance of getting a "piece of the pie" keeps people shooting. a small Lewis crumb will give heart to a B or C shooter and maybe he will come back instead of shopping for a bowling ball.

    If the winner was the only one paid the number of shooters would sink to unheard of lows. I can't believe the whole body of shooters would show up knowing they were almost guaranteed to give money away.

    Got the idea now?

    HM
     
  17. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,557
    It just seems to me the people that does not seem to improve on their game want to hear themselves talk about the so called trophy on the fire place that they won. If you could read the fine print on the back of the trophy it would probably say something like ( for breaking his first 49 out on 100 targets. )

    If its all about money then send invites to all who would like to meet at some club in the country and winner take all. Let them shoot any load they want as long as its 12ga. or under.

    I go along with the KID.
     
  18. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    291
    The real reason is that the singles classification system is flawed and the handicap system is an absolute joke.
     
  19. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    129
    Every time I hear similar arguments come up I look at the person who initiates the conversation and ask myself a few basic questions such as what are his or her motivations and how much do they really win? The answer is that they usually don't shoot well enough to win anything OR that they shoot very well indeed and find that they can't reach as deeply into your pockets as they want.

    Same as the people who constantly complain about the handicap and classification system. Except that most of these people can't win so by God it must be a problem (other than they can't shoot well enough to win) with the system.

    Common sense and math should figure in when deciding to play the purses. Went to a shoot this weekend and didn't play the doubles class purse at a dismal 90 person shoot. Came in with a score that would have been good enough for at least second (the winner didn't play either). The person who won the class purse (AA) made $18.00 on a $10.00 bet. Even if ALL of the AA doubles shooters had played the purse he only would have made, at the most $50.00 and then he wouldn't have even made that as there were two scores ahead of his anyway. So looking at the above post I either made $10.00, saved $10.00 or lost $8.00.

    Most people play the purses just like someone else already said, like a lottery. A large percentage of those I talk to don't understand what they are doing. For them it's just a little fun and excitement.

    A couple of years ago I was at the Montana State Shoot and on Friday pulled out of every "high-gun" purse because I felt like it was just a way for the "big guns" (and we all know who they are, the guys and gals that go for top dollar in the Calcutta and who we all expect to win) were going to pick everyone's pocket. Without going into the boring details I ended up the weekend shooting rather well and missing out somewhere in the neighborhood of two to three thousand dollars in lost winnings. Several of the locals, people who are friends, pretty much shook me by the shoulders for not playing. When I shared my thoughts (on high-gun) and not wanting to pick their pockets a rather pretty lady from Canada sternly told me that everyone who played the money knew what they were doing, knew what to expect and were willing participants in the sport.

    Shot last weekend against one of the sports best. As luck would have it I bested him in the second 100 of 200 handicap targets. Had a handsome little pay out. The moral of this story is two-fold. First, had it been only one place I wouldn't have made anything (as he stomped the dog out of me in the first 100) and second, wind is only your friend if you already shot and the other guys are fighting it.

    If you don't like the paid outs then stop playing them. But many of us simple minded fools think that things are just fine the way they are, for now. The "for now" part is stated so that in the event that someone comes up with a better way we can all jump on it.

    When I see the "lower class shooters" (in skill only, certainly not in character, intigrity or anything else) walk away with a few coins in their pocket and a big smile on their face I can't help but believe that the system works. And when I see the local "big guns" scrowling as a dismal pay out because they didn't get enough of our money likewise I can't help but smile, again feeling that the system worked even better.

    If you run out us little guys by taking away even the possibility of us winning a few nickles and dimes then who will support (and pay into) your purses? At the club that I used to run that lowest paid out was always class AA in both singles and doubles (because there each class shot for their own money). Sure we could have had a lot bigger "big dog" purse by taking money from the lower classes (as seems to be the underlining suggestion) but then in a shoot or two there would be no more lower class shooters showing up. All of a sudden the A's and AA's are shooting for their OWN money again because no one else will come out to line their pockets.

    I'm not going to tell anyone that if the only reason you're into this sport is to make money then maybe you should get out. But getting rich in trap, most of us won't. I flush a few bucks away at this shoot then maybe next one I'll make a few bucks. Either way I never spend more than I can afford to lose. That way when I do lose I don't feel compeled to analyse the system to find a fault and correction for the obvious problem of me not being a very good shot.

    Respectfully,
    Alex Ragulsky
     
  20. GrubbyJack

    GrubbyJack Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    527
    If you don’t like it the way it is now, just start your own shoot-for-money and see how many show up and how much you make! I can almost assure you that your operation will fold the first year….Grubby
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.