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Why not any shell for handycaps

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 1brucem, Mar 10, 2010.

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  1. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    As I have been thinking about this, why not take the opposite tack. I believe that almost all of us are passionate re-loaders. If some one can develop a load that would give him an advantage why not allow it? Reloading is such an integral part of the trap shooting experience(if you think not, just monitor the amount of threads and interest on this site) why not allow for the possibility that some one could better factory loads and then have the ability to out shoot the very best shooters in the world with it. When it comes to guns, we allow anything and any modification that a shooter perceives as an advantage as long as its a 12 gauge. Why should shells be different? If you gave most of us the best guns and ammo we still would never stand a chance against the very best over multiple handicap events as at the Grand. Thanks for reading this, Bruce
     
  2. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    This proves one thing, Give people an inch and they want a MILE ... You will have to suffer and shoot new shells if you are shooting in the shoot out and to qualify for the 100K ... If reloads were an advantage to any degree every Big Gun on the planet would be shooting them, they don't ... Take some good advise and buy new Handicap loads if you are serious about having a shot (no pun intended) at the 100K ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  3. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    The gene pool needs some chlorine.
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The big guns shoot factory shells because they get them for free. HMB
     
  5. EE

    EE Banned User Banned

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    That's an interesting idea, Bruce.

    EE
     
  6. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Bruce, you donate your $100,000.00 and you can stipulate that reloads may be used if thats the way you want the game played. Till then, just ya gotta abide by the rules it seems.


    Gne J
     
  7. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    Hey Gne J, I posted this not as a complaint about any specific event (though motivated by that discussion) but as an invitation to think about the continuing controversy that has surrounded shells for as long as I can remember. During the decades that I've been aware of this controversy, these things are evident. 1. There is a belief that shells can make an unfair advantage. As so many of the posters have expressed and I believe the data from Neil would confirm, this just isn't so. 2. We allow modifications of all other equipment by competitors to improve their performance. My question is what makes shells different and a special case? Isn't it time to let this controversy go away. How do argue that gun and other equipment modifications are part of the game but shell modification is nothing less than cheating? Thanks Bruce
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I've never tested illegally heavy loads, Bruce, nor sixes. I don't know if they are an advantage or not but with the popularity of such things at "games" you have to at least consider there might be something to it.

    There has been at least one poster here who claimed his whole squad shot illegal shells at the old Grands - my guess is that if someone is caught doing this at Sparta he'll be about done with ATA membership whether they are an advantage or not. There will be no way to save him - not with 100 grand at stake.

    Neil
     
  9. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think the restrictions on ATA shells should be limited to:

    - 12 gauge, no larger<br>
    - 2-3/4" nominal length<br>
    - 1-1/8 of shot<br>
    - No larger than 7-1/2 nominal size

    These things are measurable and enforceable. We can place all the muzzle velocity regulations in the book we want, but as of now there is no way to enforce them.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    tim, I've tested some "game" reloads now and then and I don't want to stand next to some of them. Where do you think most of these blown up guns come from? I can imagine some home ballistician thinking "For 50 grand I use this much powder, for 100 grand, I guess I need twice as much."

    Neil
     
  11. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Neil, you have a point.

    But remember, NSCA and NSSA (if I recall correctly) have no velocity restriction and I don't hear about a lot of explosions on the sport and skeet courses.
     
  12. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    Thanks Neil, I guess we're banning loads that we don't know if they are a advantage or disadvantage just because they "may". In another post Neil says he remembers platting didn't appear to be an advantage. I think common thinking would of sworn they would be an unfair advantage. I think that there is an argument to made for Timb99 post. All is visual verifiable (which is consistent with gun rules) with exception of the 7.5's which is a necessary rule for many clubs due to distance of shot fall considerations.
     
  13. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    Well, I think the EC came to a reasonable decision requiring factory shells for just the handicap events. The amount of money on the line, they have to do their best to make sure everything is on the up and up, but I expect there will be shooters at the Grand shooting loads that fall outside the rules (whether reloads or factory) and will get away with it.

    Before anyone starts whining, you should be shooting factory ammo for handicap events were money is involved anyways. Some of the first advice I was given when I started shooting was shoot handicap, play the options, and use factory ammo in those events. That way no one can accuse you of cheating when you walk away with the $$$. ;-)
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Here's the deal, Bruce. Those are the rules. End of story.

    Neil
     
  15. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

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    First of all Bruce I don't know squat about nothen but in true ts.com fashion I will profess to show what I have!

    Plating on shot does nothing more than possibly giving the individual shot alittle more fluidness of movement when moving through the barrel. Many widely distributed magazine scribes and fairy tale story writers in mags have supposedly proven the merits of plated shot on paper and game. Iam here to tell you that I've shot a few targets with it and I've done alittle hunting in my 49 years and give me good hard black shot anyday over the plating. If you truly want a better performing load then buff it.

    Now on the alledged illegal loads being of benefit. Ever play games. Watch the ole boys that think they know the secret to winning (ie spanked up loads and or large shot volumes). Let them play for 1.5 to 2 hrs with these loads. There done, over and out, history! They are so darn goosy from these things by then that they may still hit a target but watch their form and movement. Thats periodically shooting them. Now think about trying to shoot 100 of them in an hour. I'll play against them anytime with them using the outlaw loads and my simple ATA conforming from the 27.

    As I said early on, I know nothing so Iam sure those that do may chime in shortly about how little I really am aware of.....
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "NSCA and NSSA (if I recall correctly) have no velocity restriction and I don't hear about a lot of explosions on the sport and skeet courses."

    Maybe what should be remembered here is in skeet it is possible to break 100 with 1/2 oz of shot. With that being said why would anyone need to find an advantage through faster loads to accomplish the same feat with 1 1/8 oz?

    Also the majority of skeet shooters shoot sustained leads. Experimenting with those leads is not conducive to keeping those leads the same. In one type of shooting(Skeet)the speed load you learn with seem to satisfy. In the other type(Trap)experimenting seems to drive way to many on. They are never satisfied if you take the limits off the shells. I don't even want to be on the fields with those that keep trying to find the load with "the advantage".

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    You must remember that the games shooters might only use a couple or more of those earth shaking ground pounder per shoot! There's just no way any man I've ever known could stand up to that much punishment for a hundred ATA handicap shots! A few shots yes, but for a half hour, NO way!!

    Bruce, your post makes sense to me guy. Once upon a time, 1-1/4 ounces was a legal load in ATA also! Looking at the records, I didn't see anyone setting the world records on fire then either? Same with International Trap, it too was once legal to use 1-1/4 ounces of shot. The better records for clay target shooting have been accomplished with less shot? What's to fear from those making a lot of noise only, assuming the loads are book safe?

    Hap
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I don't think most people realize what's happening at reloading benches all over the country.

    Friday, a shooter had a Chrony out at Metro and it seemed to me it was working pretty well, for the most part.

    Arriving shooter: "Hey, can I try that? I don't think my scale is working just right."

    NW (steps back)

    Arriving shooter fires twice, gets 1350 fps or more both times. "That's what I thought, my scale's off."

    No one seems surprised, nor offered any advice. Not even me, though I would have had to shout it over my shoulder.

    Neil
     
  19. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Neil

    Your point is well taken, however I don't think the ATA velocity restriction rule is stopping people who are prone to amp up their loads. They're going to do it anyway.

    My big objections is we have this rule thats unenforceable.

    Bob Lawless,

    You're probably right about skeet, but what about sporting clays?
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Might the guy with the bad scale been expecting 1260 or so with his reloads? Was his loads 3/4 or 7/8ths ounces and he expected 1300 FPS? Who knows without all the facts and speculation could be wrong also?

    Nevertheless, there's some people that shouldn't even be shooting anything let alone reloading ammunition.

    Hap
     
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