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Why...lost with bad shell?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bernie K, May 17, 2010.

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  1. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    There is a thread on here about a bad shell from Winchester costing a bird and a great score. The question I have is why is it in trap that if the wad leaves the barrel it's a lost target? This is not the case in skeet and it may not be the case in sporting clays, that I don't know.

    Why would anyone load a bad shell and then use it? How would the person know that he could not break the next target if he was trying to cheat? I could see this if you had shell after shell that did this but this has happened to all of us, and the problem seems to be getting worse.

    Can someone tell me why this rule was put into trap and is there enough flack to try and get it changed? Just asking.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The old rule was unsafe. There's no interest in changing the present one - unless you want to try.

    Neil
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Bernie:

    FWIW, my guess is that it's that way because they had to define a "bad shell", and the way they did it is something that can be determined on the line.

    It gets tougher to define it if you want to allow anything else. Would it be defined based on the sound, how far the wad travels etc? It really boils down to you and I can recognize a blooper, but to put it in writing is more involved.
     
  4. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    When the older .410 shells used to burn off (and they still do) bad ammo was at the referee's discretion.

    I don't know what the rule is now but it makes sense for trap too. Only problem is the inexperienced help and the thought that some of our more boorish cohorts might want a bad ammo call if they have a miss, and be jerks about it, intimidating the young marker.

    Saw it happen in Vandalia when guys turned down angles and called them "slow pull".

    IF you have a complete dud you get a FTF, that's a little consolation.

    HM
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bernie- There must be some simple way of identifying a shell that malfunctions to the point of allowing another shot. Currently, we used the wad in the barrel for this. If we were to change the rule and identify as bad shell as one that did not break the target, my scores would improve.

    You also asked why anyone would load a bad shell and then use it? I have done that. Not recognizing the powder hopper was empty, not recognizing a broken wad guide soon enough are two easy ways for this to happen. A more difficult way, and I have done this once, is to get spent primers mixed in with good primers. I don't know how I did that, but I did it. Anyone who reloads, and this includes the factories, who has not loaded a bad shell has not reloaded many shells.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It's far easier for dud load wad to exit an overbored barrel than the tight full chokes in standard bores. I have seen what first seemed a dud load, also break a clay target?? I think the line drawn in the sand works pretty well for our game as is!!

    Hap
     
  7. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    Maybe because 99.9 % of the scorers are kids ! If it happens more than once in 10000 you just live with it.
     
  8. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    How would you like to stand next to a guy that does not pay attention with his reloads.
    Blooper after Blooper and not do anything to improve the situation from shoot to shoot. Not real good for the Harmony of a squad.

    We had a similar problem with some game shooters, our club solved the problem by going the ATA and PITA rule. If the wad clears the barrel, you own it. It didn't take very long for the best reloads to show up.

    Ajax
     
  9. Mark425

    Mark425 TS Member

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    The rule is the same with Sporting Clays and FITASC. Like Hap said...you have to draw the line somewhere.
     
  10. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

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    After 50 + years of trapshooting and reloading experience,I've proved to myself
    that reloads are not as consistent as factory loads. I have had 5 or so factory loads out of 400,000 or so that misfired,none of them cost me a target. The odds of a factory shell costing you a target,are about the same as hitting the lottery. I feel this this is a very minor problem.Reloads have cost me some targets most every year.
    This is my personal experience. Clyde Doll
     
  11. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Bernie K -

    TRAP - Long barrels, heavy payloads, lots of choke means a primer only discharge usually won't the drive wad from barrel.

    SKEET - Short barrels (at least in the past), light payloads (as little as 1/2 ounce) and little choke means a primer only discharge will usually drive the wad from the barrel. Heck, I broke a target on station 8 with a primer only discharge.
     
  12. Cobra Khan

    Cobra Khan Member

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    I believe that pretty much everyone recognizes that an 'Ammo Malfunction' is typically a result of a poorly put together reload or a hull that has been shot so many times that it will not hold pressures. Although factory ammo can and will have issues on occasion, this occurs very rarely. NSSA certainly believes this to be the case; in the game of skeet, if you have two 'Ammo Malfunctions' you are given the option to 'discontinue your reloads' and shoot factory shells. If you go to factory shells mid-round, you get two additional 'ammo malfunctions' prior to the 'Lost Bird' call. If you elect to stay with the reloads, a third 'Ammo Malfunction' is a Lost Bird.

    It is true, NSSA also states that it is the desecration of the referee to decide if it is a blooper or not. The kid with the button must decide if the weak sounding shell was the result of a miss, and what about a weak sounding shell that still busts a target? Very seldom, if ever, will a shell that broke a target be called 'ammo malfunction'. Only misses are called ammo malfunction!

    So why is Skeet so lenient? I believe that it has to do with the cost of sub-gauge ammunition. Have you checked out the price of factory 28-Ga and 410 ammo that is shot in skeet? Reloads are a very, very common thing in registered skeet; much more so then in Trap and Sporting Clay. As such I think NSSA gives the skeet shooter a break on all those ammo malfunctions that the other associations would not. They are simply listening to their constituents who want it to be more lenient so they can continue using their reloads in competition without a huge penalty should one fail to work.
     
  13. motordoctor

    motordoctor Shoji Tabuchi in Branson

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    happened this weekend. Brand new STS was a little tight going in the chamber. I said to myself--self--change the shell. Nope. Decided to use it anyway. The wad came out of the barrel and the shot fell on the trap house. cost me 100 straight in the singles race. should have known better BUT dumb a-- me figured it would work. I learned another valuable lesson in shootng. Motordoc
     
  14. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    OK I can see and understand all of the above, the rule book states that it is a no target if a piece of debris appears with a whole target even if the shooter shoots and misses. What if someone had a bad shell, the wad clears, the ref calls lost and 1 or 2 shooters on the squad say they saw a piece of debris come out with the whole target. Shooter shoots over. Yes or no?
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    motordoctor- Dumb? Yes- but I would have done the same thing. Perhaps that says something about you and I.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Texshooter

    Texshooter Member

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    I don't like the rule, but I don't know a better way to do it. And I had a factory Winchester Blooper during the GAH for a score of 99 (Kay took the shootoff). AJ
     
  17. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    I'd guess a cleared wad trumps a piece of target. I'd have to call lost, sorry.
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    If a target comes out of the house and it's broken, it's a no target whether or not a shot is fired.

    Hap
     
  19. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the remarks about target debris, remember the Referee/Scorer is the judge on lost targets, broken targets, debris coming out with the target, etc. The rules do not give squad members a voice in the ruling. I know that it is common practice, but it is not in the rules. The rules do not say the squad members can be polled for an opinion - here is what the rules actually say:

    "The referee/scorer’s decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body."
     
  20. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Have to draw a line somewhere. The rule is fine without a way to determine just how bad a shell is before you let the shoot over.
     
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