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Why "it will shoot where you look" makes no sense

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by lel4866, Sep 13, 2012.

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  1. lel4866

    lel4866 Member

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    I'm a new shooter. What I've taken from a couple of lessons, shooting, and reading is: once you have a decent gun mount, with the beads aligned in a figure 8, don't look at the beads anymore...just focus on the target and the gun will "shoot where you look".

    I don't know about you, but I can look all over the place after mounting the gun without moving the gun. Humans have eyes that rotate in their sockets. It most definitely DOES NOT shoot anywhere I look. In addition, people talk lots about look points and hold points. Seems to conflict with the "shoot where you look" idea.

    People compare the shotgun motion to hitting a baseball. You only look at the ball, not the bat. True, but the best hitters only connect about half the time. And, that's with the ball coming at you, getting visually bigger, not smaller like a clay.

    Finally, we have learning devices like the Jordan Wall Chart and various videos, like those from Leo Harrison which very clearly show you an in focus barrel and target, which seem to imply that at least in some way...peripheral vision or whatever...you most definitely must be aware of the barrel's relation to the target at the point you pull the trigger.

    So, the question is, what do you REALLY see when you pull the trigger? In reality, do you consciously see the relation of the target and barrel? Or do you really not see the barrel at all? Is the learning process one of making it almost completely subconscious?
     
  2. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Why

    Good questions. Can't wait for the answers!
     
  3. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    Why

    If I consciously see the barrel, I miss....every single time.
     
  4. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Why

    Are you trying to hit the target or all that other stuff you can see? If your eyes are focused hard on the target all that other stuff is going to disappear. What you can see when your gun is mounted is irrelevant to what you must see when there's a target in the air.
     
  5. Stumpi24

    Stumpi24 Member

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    Why

    Its like pointing your finger at a button on your friends shirt. You don't look at your finger as you are pointing, but if you have eye hand cordination you can look at the button and point and your finger will be there. The same thing on your gun, pattern your gun know where it is shooting and your eyes and hands will put the two together. Thanks Stan
     
  6. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
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    5,722
    Why

    First the gun must have a Point Of Impact that you need or desire, If you have set up your shotgun to smoke targets from the 16 yard line. That is 99% of the job. The other 1 % in my opinion is seeing the target correctly, that is seeing the target and moving the gun to the target and firing, your mind must calculate the lead on the angles automatically, the MIND is a great computer
    let it work for you, don't try to overide it with precision like rifle shooting.

    You have a pattern of pellets out there no just one pellet, various guns have different patterns as well as choke tube guns, they are designed for one purpose and that is to break targets.

    The shooting the target is instantaneous, or automatically.

    I was fortunate to start shooting with 2 eyes why I cannot tell you, I just did it.

    The gun will shoot where you look if it is adjusted and fitted to you.

    If it doesn't you are mentally trying to over ride it's calculations, in other words you are trying recalculate the minds decision, and actually delay your shooting of the target.

    If you see the target you will break it.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  7. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Why

    lel4866,


    You are obviously a very smart individual, and a good writer to boot! I too will be very interested in the responses you receive.


    I agree, shooting where you look is a misnomer for the reasons you so clearly cited. Getting the body locked-in with the gun, AND your eyes is the trick I think. All three elements moving in unison and coordination.


    Most of us can touch the tip of our noses every time even though it's not in sharp focus. We just know where it is--unless we've just left the Do Drop In after a night of imbibing that is...


    To me the gun turret analogy makes sense. The fire control sensors and processors must be directly interfaced to the mechanisms that train the turret both rotationally and vertically while dynamically reacting to the location of the target's position.


    It's really pretty easy to design a machine to do this perfectly every time--much more of a challenge to train our analog and sometimes disjointed minds and bodies.


    I suspect many of us "see" different things when we shoot.


    For me I shoot best when I "see" the image that I know, for me, results in a smoked target. Sometimes I can produce that image better than others. I've been shooting long enough to know what that looks and feels like, but this realization does not completely solve the problem.


    The best of the best of course are those who not only know when the image is right for them, but also have learned to repeat it consistently.


    I asked the Pheasantmaster to watch me one time several years ago at a shoot in Elysburg. A new shooter, I had been struggling. After a box I returned to the bench where he was sitting to learn of my mistakes. He said; "Guy, everything looks pretty good; all you need is some targets under your belt." At first inwardly disappointed, I realized after digesting his statement further how sage and reassuring it was.


    Once we learn how to tentatively pick up a green pea between our thumb and forefinger as a tot, and progress to mastering picking our nose without poking ourselves in the eye, we become All Americans at not only pointing at things we see in our periphery, but to things we can't see at all. That ability comes only from experience.


    Good luck in your quest for knowledge and enjoy the journey.



    Guy Babin
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Why

    Yes, the goal is to make it a process controlled by the subconscious. HMB
     
  9. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Why

    After you mount the gun, it should stay where you put it, and become as part of your body. If your eyes wander around while moving to the target you need a hypnotist or something.

    The gun mount is critical to shooting the target. It should be exactly the same every time. the top of the recoil pad should be even with the top of your shoulder. If it is not, get a pad adjuster. A nice option is a slight tilt to match the shoulder pocket.

    Your eye should be in alignment with the rib, with the bead in the center of your vision. If not, get an adjustable comb or get out the belt sander.

    At home, you should be able to mount the gun with your eyes closed, and see the exact same spot every time you open them. With the gun mounted, track the bead horizontally along the line where the ceiling and wall join. do the same vertically in the corner. This is good, because it will improve your shooting and not cost a cent.

    When the target breaks you want to see the pieces fly right in front of the bead. NO peeking! (head lifting)

    Finally, do not pull the trigger if you have your eyes closed ( I knew a girl who did that, a very hard habit to break).

    HM
     
  10. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    Why

    lel4866, you have to keep your upper body, including those eyeballs and the gun locked together as one unit. When you call for the target, everything moves together toward the target. That way, the gun follows the eyeballs and you will "shoot where you look."
     
  11. SMOKEIT

    SMOKEIT Well-Known Member

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    Why

    AT THE POINT WHERE THE BEAD APPROACHES THE TARGET YOU EYE/BRAIN WILL NOTICE THAT AND YOU WILL MOVE THE BEAD TO THE CORRECT RELATIONSHIP TO THE BIRD TO BREAK IT AND YOU WILL FIRE THE GUN AT THAT TIME. YOU MAY NOT BE AWARE OF THIS BUT IT IS WHAT I THINK IS HAPPENING..SMOKIT
     
  12. hot springs

    hot springs TS Member

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    Why

    Halfmile just gave you some real good advice. You shouldn't have to do mental geometry when shooting a target. If your gun is set up to fit you correctly, you shouldn't have to do anything but look at the target and it will incenerate. However, it does take A LOT of trial and error to get a gun set up to shoot where you are looking. Start on the 16 yard line as suggested. Everybodys point of impact preferences and sight pictures are different. You have to figure out what works for you. When you accomplish this, shooting a target becomes automatic and the reults are very rewarding. Good luck in your shooting.
     
  13. Palos shooter

    Palos shooter Active Member

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    Northern Illinois
    Why

    Many Years ago in Vandalia I sat at a table having lunch and the guy talking was Frank Little..He was explaining to us the Importance of bird bead relationship..He said everytine you shoot each bird you have to see the bird bead relationship..He sais you could just spot the bird with hand eye cordination right out of the house and your buddies would be impressed with the smoke..Maybe you would end up in the 90s..He said to break them all you have to see the bird bead relationship..That is how you know that you were behind the angle birds.You have to see the gun or barrel in your secondary vision..He said never shoot unless everything looks right..Just follow the bird a little longer untill it doe's.He also said that concentration was the key to the game.
     
  14. 2labman

    2labman Member

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    Why

    Many people do not understand the difference between 'seeing' something, and 'looking at' something. Yes, you surely want to 'look at' the target, do not take your eyes off of the target, focus on the target. BUT, while you are looking at and focusing on the target, you can still 'see' the bead, and yes, it is called peripheral vision. Whether you do it conciously (not the preferred methed) or subconciously (preferred method), your brain needs to see the bird/bead relationship, it simply has too to know when to pull the trigger. Have you heard of 'shooting on timing'? After a lot of targets you will develop a sense of 'when' you should be shooting, pull, one, two, bang, or maybe just one or maybe three. This is where much flinching begins, your internal timing tells you it's time to shoot, but your brain tells you (usually subconciously) that you can't shoot because you're not 'on the target'. How does your brain know that? It 'sees' the bird/bead relationship.
     
  15. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Why

    lel asks the same question all of us pondered at some point. This business of having the gun shoot where you look takes a lot of rounds down range to get. It doesn't just come to you on the first time out. At this point the new shooter probably thinks this is one of those mystical 'use the force' deals that only the Jeddi trapshooter can posess.

    But believe it or not there will come a point when you get away from riding the bead and trying to line up the shot as if you were shooting a rifle. The gun movement will become radically smoother and the targets will just boil. You will feel as if you are really tuned in and the game just got easier. It takes a bunch of practice and the willingness to forget what you thought you knew.

    As to the question of what do you see when shooting a target - I see the target. More than that the better I see the target the better I hit it. Really it is just that simple and more than likely your CPU already has those abilities you just have to trust it a bit more.
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Why

    I know shooters that have shot hundreds of thousands of targets yet can't tell you the processes they see when shooting! Some are fantastic shooters at times too!

    If every target we shot was twice as fast as the last, how would this "shoots where we look" thingie work? Not very well in my opinion. We also know that a much faster angled target DOES require more lead in order to break them consistently!

    Several posts above allude to how we see with our peripheral vision to make a proper bird/bead relationship work. That aspect of vision is at work whether or not a shooter is aware of whats going on.

    A properly fitted stock is necessary to begin shooting with consistency on moving targets. Upper body control means you and the gun become one as a single moving unit with only the eyes moving independently to find and lock onto the target while giving the tank turret move ample time to intercept the clay making the correct bird/bead connection. Once learned, this method allows a shooter to shoot pretty fast too but it is a learned process and gets quicker as more targets are shot.

    Arm swingers rely on gun speed to create the built in leads and that works sometimes, other times not so well. I'd rather rely on what my eyes are telling me rather than my arm muscles when it comes to making a precise point.

    Hap
     
  17. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Why

    NO--Please re-read the above responses 2straight...
     
  18. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Why

    To add to the soup..........

    I have an older 20 gauge Beretta that does indeed shoot where I look. In the field, that is. You do not have much time with a grouse in thick cover.

    When a bird gets up there is no conscious activity. I am watching the bird because I hate hunting for them in the brush. the gun comes to my shoulder and when I slap the trigger a dead bird falls. Well, 70 per cent of the time, anyway.

    There is something about this little gun that works. I will never sell this gun.

    But I can't shoot clay target worth a damn with it.

    Go figure.

    HM
     
  19. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Why

    I have a black bead so when I'm looking at the clay and I comprehend a big black blob approaching 4, 6 or 8 o'clock to the clay I pull the trigger.

    Keller
     
  20. 3357

    3357 Member

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    Why

    I believe the "shoot where you look" concept is predicated on a solid gun mount, a gun that fits raesonably well, and most importantly, staying "in" the gun and focused on the target during the shot.

    Because the gun will shoot where you look under the above guidelines, if you are focused on something other than the target you will miss the target.

    As an example, I was shooting at the MTA homegrounds Fall team shoot last weekend. The fields are a little close together and the whind was blowing. I mount my gun, call for the target, and as it goes out a large piece of a broken target from an adjacent field blows into my line of sight. I momentarily looked at the broken piece and away from my target, I stayed firmly in the gun but missed my target. I lost my hard focus on my target causing the miss. As we know, the process happens quickly. Jess
     
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