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WHY DO WE HAVE RULES????

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by jimbotrap, Oct 10, 2007.

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  1. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I ask this question because there has been a great deal of discussion, as of late, regarding target settings. We have a rule that requires targets be set
    at a minimum of 49 yards. Mr. Winston has posted information regarding the proper settings using radar guns and cronographs.

    I just talked to a friend who attended the Missouri Fall Handicap. According to what he said (and has been posted by others on other threads) the targets were set very soft. About 45 yards by his estimation. Also as posted on another thread the targets were set about 41 mpr. Thus to short targets.

    He also advised there were (he thought) 13 100 straights (8 by 27 yard shooters) and untold 97,98 & 99's. Numbers like these might just be do to the soft target settings, regardless of how nice the weather was.

    Again my question why have rules when they are no adhered to?? Although I am not aware if any EC members attended this shoot, but certainly the Missouri State Delegate should have been there. Why were the rules ignored?

    Personally, and I am not alone, I believe soft target settings are detrimental to the sport in the long run. The Missouri Fall Handicap grew to its great size somewhat due to the fact if was difficult to shoot high scores and payoffs were very high. For years the target settings at this shoot were 50 yard minimum and 3 hole. Weather contributed to low scores. But alas given soft targets and very mild weather the scores would be as described above.

    Again, why do our officials post minimum requirements and then ignor the same rules?? Somewhat confused. - Jim
     
  2. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    When someone tells me he can look across a field and determine the targets are 5 yards short I already know he's full of bull-crap!!
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Central Zone clubs throw legal targets, Jim. I went to five state shoots, the Open, Grand, Great Lakes Grand and there wasn't one throwing short- or long - targets. I checked. This doesn't mean I wasn't told they were long, short, wide, narrow, or too high or low, often enough as in your case, by people who weren't there. I told people they were not long or short and the rest can be fixed.

    Neil
     
  4. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    I was there at the Mo. Fall Handicap for Saturday and Sunday so I do not have to rely on a "friend" to tell me about the targets. If the targets were set as soft as 41 mph the scores would have been WORSE due to a steady south breeze that gusted at times. I hate slow, short targets because they do not carry and are difficult for anyone with a high shooting gun (nearly everyone from 25 yds back). The targets thrown were legal, and very well set. The high scores were a result of bright sunshine, warm temperatures, and a gathering of the best handicap shooters in the nation.

    I will also add that I have never seen a Fall Handicap with a more perfect background. Usually the trees have started to turn a bit brown and the grass in front of the traps is burnt up from a hot summer. This year the trees were very dark green and the grass had pepped up from recent rain, both helped to make the targets easy to pick up leaving the house.

    Beyond that, Mr. Elliot, the Missouri ATA Delegate was in attendance and was, as usual, ever vigilant. Your "friend" has it wrong.
     
  5. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Alright you ATA officials, put on your "target police" badge, Stetson hat, dual holsters with six guns ablazin and enforce these dang rules!!
     
  6. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather break a target than a rule. Course, I don't have much luck at either.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim Elliott- I believe you made a fundamental error in the second sentence of your initial post on this thread by actually changing the rule in the rule book and then asking why the rule, as you changed it, if not followed.


    You stated " We have a rule that requires targets be set at a minimum of 49 yards." That is a major change that you made to what is actually in the rule book. The three words you left out are very important.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    "except big dogs" Pat? No, I know, the words you refer to are "on level ground," right?

    Neil
     
  9. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    So what your telling us is all those 100 straights are not a result of equipment improvements or voice activated systems!!
     
  10. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Neil and Pat. - I apologize because I wasn't there to see myself. But a good friend and accomplished shooter was. He told me the targets appeared to be very soft. He asked, more than one person, what the setting were. He was told they set the targets at 41 mpg. Now I agree I do not understand how they
    positioned the guns, but in my past experience and as stated by Neil on several
    occasion the targets should be set 42 to 43 mph to effect a legal 49 yard min. target. Pat yes I did not quoat the entire rule. But simply it is 49 to 51 yards and Minimum of 49.

    I admit I have not shot the central zone this year. But in the past I have found several clubs that continually shoot short targets. In my past experience I see very few 100's on legally set targets. Again I did not attend the Grand this year, but I understand the target settings were much better than last year and there were more shooters there and very very few 100's.

    I guess you might say I have been barking up the wrong tree. But I truly believe the sport started to decline when major clubs started shooting 2 hole soft targets.

    Sorry to offend some of you but I have always believed we should set targets by the rules. Period. - Jim
     
  11. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Well crap ... to get 41mpg from a target they must be really well tuned machines.
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    So do I, Jim. And "Period" as well.

    The words Pat referred to were, of course, "in still air" and we have all been told that the Missouri Fall Handicap was at least breezy this year which makes distance setting - and judgment - not particularly trustworthy.

    The new rule book will specify 42 MPH - plus or minus 1/2 MPH - when speed is measured in a specified way.

    No offense taken of course, I think we both want the same thing.

    Neil
     
  13. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Biggest part of the problem here is a few people seem to think the distance need be set continually to achieve their so called perfect target.

    Not so!!
     
  14. hubcap

    hubcap TS Member

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    I was there, so I'm not relying on 2nd hand information. I didn't see any soft targets thrown. What I did see was a bunch of great shooters shooting in great weather with a great background.

    nuff said

    hubcap
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jim Elliott- The three words you left out, as Neil mentioned, are "in still air." That also means that with some wind, targets traveling 49-51 yards could be illegal. Certainly a 50 yard target into a 15 MPH North wind is illegal.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Speed and T-bar's all you need. Pull out those distance stakes. There is no need for them any more.
     
  17. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Pat, not to be argumentative. But I was told the weather was terrific for this time of the year. And when target were set there was little to no wind. It was very still air. - Jim
     
  18. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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    It was a gorgeous afternoon here in Las Vegas, so after closing, I decided to go out and check my own targets. I used the Prospeed radar gun, set the target between 9 1/2 & 10' in height on a dead straightaway, and started adjusting the spring to bring the speed to 41mph. After slowing it to this speed, I had to adjust the elevation slightly. After throwing 10 targets in a row at 41.0 to 41.2 mph, I took the tape and started checking distance. I disregarded the first bird launched in every case, as it will be slightly slower using the Pat Trap bands. The next 10 targets fell consistanly at 122 to 123 feet (averaging slightly short of 41yds.) I went back and adjusted the speed to 41.5 to 41.7 mph, and using the same method, found the distance to average 3 feet longer, bringing them to an average of just under 42yds.

    It was absolutely dead calm, 81 degrees, and 10% humidity. If someone can straighten me out on this, I would certainly like to hear it. I feel like I am reading a totally different set of rules than the rest of the country.


    Steve Carmichael

    Las Vegas Gun Club
     
  19. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    My two cents from yet another armchair quarterback who was nowhere near that shoot. It was noted in one of the posts that the background allowed for easy visual pickup of the targets. when I can easily pickup the targets when they leave they house, I always shoot a good score and I always feel the targets were slow. Truth is the targets were just more visible and thus were much easier to break.
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    HGWT, slower targets are easier to lock on (see) also. Hap
     
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