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Why can she shoot better at the 27 than at the 16?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by yendor12, Aug 7, 2010.

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  1. yendor12

    yendor12 Member

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    My wife just started shooting trap 2 years ago, and has improved greatly.
    She shoot 16 yrd for practice and registared all the time and averages 16-19 consistantly, when in handicap her average increases to 18-21.
    She is my partner in protection and at the 27 yrd line she rarly misses
    Why?
    16 yrd load is 1 oz #8's, 1200fps, IM choke
    24 yrd Handicap is the same load, IM choke and with better scores
    27 yrd is 1 oz #7.5 at 1275, IM choke.

    Can anyone give me good advice on why she may do so well on the 27 vs the 16?

    Rod
     
  2. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    It sounds to me like she aims instead of points. Aiming is harder at 16, because the gun movement is greater. I'd also open her choke for 16s.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that if you kept more careful track of the hits vs misses involved over a substantial number of shots - say 100 of each - the "effect" you speak of would go away. That is, I doubt there is anything to explain.

    Neil
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    You should check the POI of the gun, it might favor the longer yardage. HMB
     
  5. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    My guess would be less gun movement. You need to move the gun more at the 16 than you do at the 27.

    When I first started shooting if I shot a good singles score then I knew handicap was going to suck and vice a versa.
     
  6. below 0

    below 0 TS Member

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    It would seem to me that if she is hitting the targets good at the 27 , and not at the 16, then she is "over choked" at the 16. Try a more open choke at the 16 and I would bet that her singles scores will improve. Odie
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on, people. She is averaging under 75 at singles. Changing the choke to anything is not going to change that.

    HMB's suggestion, though more thoughtful, can hardly be true either, can it? Though I've never shot "protection" it's my impression that a lot of the shots are taken when the bird has at least begun to "flatten out" and so the math for "longer yardage" wouldn't work (and, of course, it doesn't work anyway.)

    There probably is a reason she has a sub-75 average and it can be POI but is it more likely that she just is not very accurate most of the time. This can lead to strings of good shooting and strings of bad shooting and the easy mistake to make is to think that you are decent 27-yard shooter with bad spells rather than taking the long-term view I suggested above, keep _real_ score and work with that, as depressing as that may be.

    Neil
     
  8. below 0

    below 0 TS Member

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    Not all shooters have time or the expertise to "do the math" as Neil has suggested. All I'm saying is to TRY a more open choke and see if she is shooting a too tight choke for 16's. It certinly is not going to hurt anything to at least try it...Odie
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, below 0, yeddor12 asked a "math" question so that's the only way to get an answer.

    She's now shooting IM at singles. Missing one-in-four by more than 10 inches, what is a slight increase in the probability of breaking a target missed by more than 10 inches but less than, say 12 going to do to her average?

    But why, you are still asking, should she not just try a more open choke? The answer is that with averages like that she can never (really) tell what's better and may just screw up her thinking when she does learn to shoot better. If, instead of breaking 72, she breaks 75 she may think "Look, that light-modified choke got me three extra birds!" when in fact her scoring is so uneven (re-read the first post) that 75 is just as common, overall, as 72 and the choke had no effect at all. But once that happens, what are the chances of ever getting her to shoot IM as she should, or full as she should for "protection?"

    Neil
     
  10. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    First of all, have her pattern this gun. Willing to bet the gun shoots to high for her at 16 yd targets. When someone does better at handicap than 16 yard, tells me she needs some proper instruction too.
    Steve Balistreri
     
  11. below 0

    below 0 TS Member

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    I didn't realize that she was shgooting an IC choke already. I stand corrected...Odie
     
  12. BobC

    BobC TS Member

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    After 5 years at trap and having a 97.6 average in singles and a 94.6 in hc{25} I switched to sporting clays and have been at it for 2-3 years. I have compared these two shooting disciplines alot. while in trap I shot a full choke at 16 yards. Today I shoot a much more open choke at anything to 20 yards and I hit most of them. Like Odie stated your wife is over choked. Today when I shoot 16 I shoot a cylinder or skeet choke and never more than an IC... Bob
     
  13. BobC

    BobC TS Member

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    After 5 years at trap and having a 97.6 average in singles and a 94.6 in hc{25} I switched to sporting clays and have been at it for 2-3 years. I have compared these two shooting disciplines alot. while in trap I shot a full choke at 16 yards. Today I shoot a much more open choke at anything to 20 yards and I hit most of them. Like Odie stated your wife is over choked. Today when I shoot 16 I shoot a cylinder or skeet choke and never more than an IC... Bob
     
  14. BobC

    BobC TS Member

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    After 5 years at trap and having a 97.6 average in singles and a 94.6 in hc{25} I switched to sporting clays and have been at it for 2-3 years. I have compared these two shooting disciplines alot. while in trap I shot a full choke at 16 yards. Today I shoot a much more open choke at anything to 20 yards and I hit most of them. Like Odie stated your wife is over choked. Today when I shoot 16 I shoot a cylinder or skeet choke and never more than an IC... Bob
     
  15. below 0

    below 0 TS Member

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    I, too, shoot a Lite Full from the 16 in practice, but switch to a light Mod in competition. With todays wads fully protecting the shot column thru the barrel, a super tight choke is not needed to crush targets. I truly believe that if the gun is shooting where the shooter looks then good scores are going to happen...Odie
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bobc, when you shoot those open chokes at trap are you able to match the 97.6 you held with your full choke? If your average is even better I suppose I could support your claim that more open is better and might be for the lady in question. If, however, your average is not as good, I can't see how it is supposed to help her, since it's worse for you and you are a good shot. Why would it be better for a less-good shot than you?

    Neil
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Here is a solution to the problem. The next time you take her shooting, lock the trap on straight aways from station 3. Have her shoot the targets, and if she is not getting center hits you can make the necessary adjustments to the POI of the gun. Then after a few thousand rounds of practice she will be shooting 25 straights. HMB
     
  18. rmy

    rmy Member

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    Yendor, I don't think that I have ever seen anyone that shoots better from the 27 than the 16. Now and then you might shoot a better 27 yd score but if you average 500-1000 targets, I just don't see it happening. In this case, I would listen to Neil.
     
  19. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    Bobby,
    Your high handicap average from is from the 25? I would seem if you averaged that (94.6) from the 25 yard line you would have one of the highest handicap averages in the ATA and would certainly be on the 27 yard line with enough targets shot. Since you are not, it makes me wonder how many singles you shot too and from how much personal data you draw your opinion from.

    I can't agree more with what Neil is saying.
    Also, I am not always a fan of "what do the All-Americans shoot?"........but in this case it might be appropriate. Many of the top shooters shoot pretty quick which would require LESS choke while a shooter who shoots slowly would require MORE..........however, I am willing to bet that most of the top shooters in the ATA shoot a faily tight choke even at singles. It is true that if you "choke for smoke" you can read your breaks and become a precise shooter.

    Good luck with your lady!

    Lyle


    PS.....most of the sporties I have shot with don't choke enough and lose targets that are on edge..........
     
  20. xringjim

    xringjim TS Member

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    First, VERY nice thread. Even Ikey. Ikey, most here don't know what you were talking about. lol. I like HMB's advice. To me it comes close. Let's get really simple here. This advice is for all of you. Until you know how you shoot your gun, you'er lost. I'd advice ANY shooter to got to club and shoot NOTHING but straight-aways. Take note of just WHERE you hit the target. I'd shoot 1000 targets or more ( if needed) to get a good sense of where I shot my gun. Now, ANY movement made at the 16 yd line is excentuated at the 27. So, let's look at this 'backwards'. She misses more at 16 than 27. Some people's minds move from left to right. Others, from right to left. Maybe she just 'sees' better from 27? If her vision improves with distance the 'body' ' mind', will make the necessary adjustments to achieve the acted upon choice. Many times people fail to recognize this event. If her reaction time and senses are 'geared' to the farther distance this must be accounted for. So, how do you do it? You replecate ( as much as possible) shooting from EACH distance. And keeping score of the hits. At 27 she could be having a better score do to a smaller field of view she has to use to acquire the target. Not everything is do to more 'outward' conditions. Opening up the choke doesn't really help to make her a better shooter. It ONLY makes up for her INABILITY to hit the target. Instead of trying to find ways for her inability, work on her ability to shoot BETTER. So, have her stand at the #3 station and shoot a 'ton' of straight-aways. Keep note of the results you get. If the mechanics can't be identified with the bad shooting you must then start looking elsewhere. Shooting clays is as much an outer job, as an inner. To become a great shooter, you must identify who's shooting the gun. The gun will ALWAYS shoot where you point it. So you must indentify your weaknesses. Playing with a gun that shoots straght ( comb, rib), while some help, doesn't correct what's going on in the shooter's head. Imagine you shooting your gun while you're upset about something and being like a guy that just got layed. We ALL shoot better when we bare down. So, another answer my be the women is paying MORE attention while at the 27 yd line. I can say, that the more tighter a gun shoots the better the shooter gets. Forget 30" at 40 yds. I want 25" at 40. Jim
     
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