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Why a chronograph for shotshells?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Unknown1, Sep 26, 2010.

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  1. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking this question for my own education, not to start another war.

    What's the reason for using a chronograph for shotshells if the user has no way to also measure chamber pressure (other than to play with the device)?

    Intelligent reloaders load to published data which includes both the peak chamber pressure and the observed velocity for that data. If shells loaded that way end up showing speeds faster or slower than what the powder company's data projects, what can be done about it? Without having any accurate way to measure what effect changes from the data will have on peak pressure, knowing what the shot speed is irrelevant.

    MK
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It's just sometimes nice to know, U1. Same with chamber pressure, only even less "useful," if possible.

    It's also interesting so see how well manufacturers match the shells in the box to what's written on it.

    Neil
     
  3. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Neil, interesting, maybe but still irrelevant.. No?
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Sure, Martin, in most cases. But remember my "Telling fast from slow powder" experiment? Here, getting the shot-speeds equal was critical. So it _sometimes_ is not irrelevant.

    You can also tell good primers from bad (if you care about keeping shot-speeds similar) and solve problems like "Brand A lights kick less than Brand B" and similar gun club discussions.

    Neil
     
  5. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    If your goal is chamber preasure and ONLY that then it is irrelevant. However, alot of us are concerened with both aspects. If speed was not important than why would the manufactures put it on all the loads? But since there is not a feasable way to measure preasure for the average shooters it leaves the speed which can be measured so they will control that side of it.


    **Edit, the published loads IMO are a good guidline but dont take them as absolute. There speeds are not that accurate.
     
  6. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Everything has a revelancy- equals or does not equal. It is all relevant to the sophisticated of mind.

    I have shot trap for 40 years w/o a chronograph, I now find the ninformation derived from it is helping me design a better load for myself with my components, where I know I am not dealing with extreme pressures.

    I call it fine tuning my loads now, where I did not have this capability.

    I can now load 5 shells of my choosing and chronograph them noting results.

    There is a world of information and technology now available if you use common sense in knowledge available.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Besides, Gary, it's fun, isn't it?

    Neil
     
  8. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I have a chronograph and have never used it.

    Like most, I load to published recipes. If shells are working, I see no need to know how close my velocities are what I should be getting.

    If I checked and found they were running 25 fps slower what would I do anyway?

    If you are pushing velocities to the maximum allowed in the rules you will want to check velocity when it is hot to determine the true maximum velocity of the load.

    The other use I see for the machine is to know if you are meeting minimum power factor in pistol games where that is important. There you check at the lowest temperatures you will shoot at.

    Just a waste of time otherwise.

    Don Verna
     
  9. schwabby

    schwabby Member

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    It can help sort out poor components like Neil said, and boost your confidence in your equipment. And it's cool. I've loaded shells with with Prome and Nobel primers that have a five shot variance of almost 100 fps, while Winchesters and Clays had about 25 fps variance and the avg velocity was right on the nut. The Nobel loads also were way slow. I don't remember the specifics, it's been a long time.
    Has anyone chronod Nobel primers with a premium powder to check consistency. Neil?

    Steve Schwab
     
  10. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I like to keep my reloads at the same speed as new AA's and STS's. But, with much less recoil. That way I can switch back and forth. I don't use the Chrono very often, just when I change or develop a new load.
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    shot410ga- I also would like to keep my reloads at the same speed as factory AA shells but with less recoil. Unfortunately, the basic laws of Physics prevent me from doing that.

    One can produce very good reloads without a chronograph. But, I still like to test mine now and then.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Pat, If I use 1 oz loads at the same speed as 1 1/8 oz. Should not the recoil be less? As like in the basic law of Physics?
     
  13. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    “I like to keep my reloads at the same speed as new AA's and STS's. But, with much less recoil.”

    How does he do that????
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    shot410ga- Certainly, 1 oz at the same speed as 1 1/8 oz would result in less recoil. I made the assumption that you were striving to duplicate factory loads. And, as with many assumptions, a wrong conclusion was made.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <I><blockquote>"If speed was not important than why would the manufactures put it on all the loads? But since there is not a feasable way to measure preasure for the average shooters it leaves the speed which can be measured so they will control that side of it.</blockquote></I>But that is why I am asking.

    Of course speed is important, but within a given set of components anything that alters speed also alters pressure. If you adjust the components to get a speed you want, shouldn't you also be concerned with what you've done to the pressure, which you can't measure?

    MK
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    When you set up your chronograph at the club and make it look "professional, if there are others at the club some will surely drop by and ask to "try their recipes."

    And that's another use of chronographs. You soon see how many reloaders don't pay much attention to the guides, but rather count on the Annie load the guy who wins told them about. Or the information so common at a club "Those guides assume you will add some powder, so they all cut the data back a couple of grains" and so on.

    Others have a low-recoil load they really like which can't be low recoil or a wad combination - say a one-ounce load in a straight-wall hull and the wrong (tapered-hull) type of wad - that is "exactly as described in the book" but which is about worthless.

    Last, as with any quality scientific toy, it will spark interest well beyond the number on the readout on one particular day. When you get the data home you may begin to ask "Are these two loads really different or is that just today's result of a little faster and behind it is actually no difference at all?"

    So you pick up the old math books that never much interested you forty years ago and off goes the TV and out comes homework. You get some understanding of statistics, variability, and chance and all of a sudden the news that "Violent crime is down 5% on Mullberry Street" only reinforces the conclusion that a lot of what you are told isn't true at all. Consider the perennial favorite "The Dow was down three percent today on news that the economic indicators were found to be largely fictitious."

    In short, a chronograph is the door that may lead you back to looking at "real" things first hand and reignite a scientific interest that will enrich your life in many ways, most of them having no relation to shot-shell speed at all.

    Neil
     
  17. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Take the Chrono one step further. Take the loads you tested and have the average speed recorded and written down.

    Now take the same load and shoot it in a larger bore Bbl let's say a .750 bore Kolar TS 34"inch bbl w/full choke tube what is the speed of the shell now?

    Compared to a Kolar TS .740 Bore w/ full choke tube.

    Which Bbl shoots the shell faster? Or does it? Slower or faster?

    As soon as My friend gets his Kolar TS trigger back w/release we are going to compare shell speeds betwen a .740 and a .750 Bbl w/ both having full choke tubes and 34"inch Bbls.

    Rumor has it the .750 Bores shoot faster.

    Then compare 30 inch Bbl to 34"inch Bbl and see if there is an increase of speed w/ same reloads.

    Inquisitive minds are at it again.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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  19. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    While pressure testing equipment might be financially out of reach for the average reloader, a simple chronograph is not. You can see how consistent your loads are and the effects of temperature on how they perform. I've been doing this since the 70's starting with an old custom made unit with those orange/red tube displays. They used frangible screens that were broken when the shot/projectile perforated it. Simple, effective, and worthwhile information for those who care.

    While selecting loads, you would normally select a load that "should" not exceed reasonable pressure limits. The chronograph will allow you to compare your reloads to factory ammunition and to other reloads. It's a good piece of information to be able to aquire. I have about seven or eight chronographs that I have collected over the years. I use a Chrony F1 the most, but use two ProCrono's in tandem when the results count.

    Not everybody cares to know how fast their loads are going, but for me it's an additional piece of information that let's me taylor a load for my needs. Now the company that comes up with a working $100 pressure tester will likely have my money pretty quickly, even if it's just for curiositie's sake. Until then, I will send any loads I need pressure data for out to be tested. I already know about consistency and approximate velocity.
     
  20. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Dr. Longshot, you wrote above "I have shot trap for 40 years w/o a chronograph, I now find the ninformation derived from it is helping me design a better load for myself with my components, where I know I am not dealing with extreme pressures".

    Now the the !?? does speed of a shell give you the pressure your presuming to say that you can acquire via speed???????????????????????? Don't try to give me a "snow_job" of an answer either!

    himark, you wrote "If speed was not important than why would the manufactures put it on all the loads? "

    On target loads its a whimsical way the manufactures show submission to velocity guidelines setforth by respective associations. For hunting loads, whimsical way to create mystical power by whomever posess thee....

    Neil, been in it again ha???
     
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