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who determines an "illegal target"?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by smartass, Apr 9, 2007.

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  1. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    who determines an

    The same person who determines if the target is dead or lost also determines illegal targets. The rulebook calls this person the "referee", but is also known as the "scorer".
     
  2. SirMissalott

    SirMissalott Active Member

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    who determines an

    If the target is from mexico? Sorry couldnt help it
     
  3. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    who determines an

    The target could not have been scored a failure to fire under the circumstances described. It was either illegal and no target, or a legal and lost.
     
  4. birdshooter

    birdshooter TS Member

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    who determines an

    Eddie,

    Pat is absolutely correct. If you shoot at a called for target whether legal or illegal, you "bought" the target.

    John,

    It sounds like you handled the situation you were presented with the same way I would have. In the case of your first and second FFs for each sub-event it is no big deal. Ignore em and mentally reset.

    Pat,

    A question back for you ... I think I know the answer but am not 100% certain ... lets say a shooter is mounting his/her firearm and misfires "before" calling for the target. I think that the shooter should just reload and calls for his/her bird ... no harm no foul. Am I correct?

    birdshooter-
     
  5. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    who determines an

    For Jerry B.,

    You have never shot at the club that John shoots at regularly or you would see a couple per 100. I can assure you that several traps there throw targets that are nowhere near legal. They are usually a very wide right that travels about 30 yards. Obviously, the scorer has the advantage of seeing where the not-shot-at target lands in relationship to the 50 yard or doubles stake. If a called for target, timely released, is not shot at, and it falls within the regulation angles, wind conditions allowed for, it should be called an FTF.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    Harold's right. If the target was legal it's lost, not FTF. If it's illegal, it's no bird.

    Neil
     
  7. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    John:

    Your question is addressed by Section VII (Official Scoring), Part A (Procedure), Item 1. It states in part, "The official score... kept by referee/scorer... (is) subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body.

    Unless an individual or group designated by shoot management as "shoot committee" or "governing body" overturns a decision, the scorer/referee's ruling stands.

    I'd also echo FlaLagarto's point. Section XIII (Standards for ... Targets ...)
    Part E (Flights & Angles) and the diagram at the end of the rule book addresses legal vs. illegal angles among other things. Legal angles can be as much as 27 degrees either way of a true straightaway.

    It isn't unusual for shooters to turn down angles approaching the 27 degree maximum as "illegal".

    sissy
     
  8. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    stevea:

    Perhaps you'd favor us by citing the rule or rules which allow(s) a shooter to voluntarily turn down a legal target (straight away or otherwise) that's promptly thrown after the shooter calls for it.

    sissy
     
  9. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    Sissy, The only illegal targets I have seen turned down were targets thrown that landed on the next field.....close to the house!! I have never in 10 years seen someone turn down a "hard right or Left" as illegal, I think it would be highly unusual for someone to turn down a hard angle as described above...
    If it really is an illegal target, take the FTF if they won't consider it an illegal. If you shoot at it....you own the results. I saw a GOOD shooter miss his only bird in a 200 bird shoot and it was an illegal, that probably landed 20 feet in front of the house to the right of us....he couldn't lay off of it...but he shot and missed......likely cost him a State Title!
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    recoil sissy:
    You may have a straight away target that may be either slow or fast at the call? That is a no target also if no shot is fired.

    If the target in question squirted out the side of the house and didn't travel as most right angle birds do, it's a no target if no shot is fired. Hap
     
  11. 90T3200

    90T3200 TS Member

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    who determines an

    I've never been in the situation, but I have shot at targets not meeting the target guidelines in the ATA book.

    My question is, how does the legal/illegal target rules apply to days with heavy wind?

    I shot in a registered shoot in which the 25-30mph wind kept changing directions. Some birds went straight up, maybe 30 feet or more. Some got pushed down and dipped just barely over the roof of the house. Some hard angles turned sideways as they flew. Everyone on my squad just shot - most of the time, I enjoy days like that. It makes trap an even more fun challenge. I came away with an 88 from the 20 yard line, but it was fun! The wind died down on the 4th field at the edge of the woods and I ran the last 25.
     
  12. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    who determines an

    Winds don't make targets illegal, but it doesn't matter. All you have to do whenever you see a target you don't like is to not shoot, then yell out "slow pull" as loud as possible. That gives you a free pass on that target so you can try again. Don't look for this in the rules since it's one of the unwritten ones.
     
  13. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    Frank:

    There are three angle parameters relevant to this discussion. The first is an area 17 degrees either side of a straight away. The rule book describes this area as "the most desirable...” The second is an area 27 degrees either side of a straight away. The rule book describes this area as "area of legitimate (i.e. "legal") targets". The third is any angle greater than 27 degrees from the straight away which are illegal.

    Knowledgeable shooters recognize the difference between targets in those three areas. Shooters that are knowledgeable AND ethical act according. If you haven't seen shooters turn down legal targets pushing, but within, the 27 degree max, congrats. That would indicate you associate with knowledgeable and ethical people.

    We part company about the legitimate applicability of the FTF rules.

    A shooter always has the option of turning down a target he or she believes to be illegal as defined by the rules. However, if the scorer/referee subsequently rules that target as legal and lost, it is lost. Under such circumstances, the FTF rule doesn't apply.

    The FTF rule has its share of flaws and ambiguities. One of those flaws is that it allows manipulation by unscrupulous shooters. However, ethical shooters don't "take" an FTF to negate a scorer's ruling.

    sissy
     
  14. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    Hap:

    Your observation about slow or fast pulls is of course, accurate but unrelated to Mr. Malcolm's situation. As you'll recall, John's issue concerned what he believed to be an illegal right angle.

    Extreme target height is another acceptable reason for turning down a target. The so called flipper target (which our sporting clays brothers and sisters would describe as a springing teal) is a classic example.

    sissy
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    sissy, I realized it was unrelated to Johns scenario but question who determines prompt or "promptly" in your post? You do have a good read on the rules though. Hap
     
  16. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    who determines an

    Hey,

    As it stands "Skeet rule was you can never score on an illegal target" But I have never seen anyone call an illegial target except for broken or targets with no middle.

    I do not know how you can be expected to pay for illegal targets. That is one rule that should be changed and enforced. A fair opportunity for each shooter on each target.

    If one gust of wind drives a target into the ground for one shooter, where is the fair opportunity.

    Take care,

    Jim
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    who determines an

    There remains much misunderstanding among shooters and scorers between a "no target" and a failure to fire".

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. sxs28ga

    sxs28ga TS Member

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    who determines an

    I've seen many hard right illegal targets from pat traps (usually because of worn brushes) had some at the southern grand - its very hard to lay off that target when your on station 5 - since the rule is really a little fuzzy, a shooter can let a legal target go if he "flinches" its a FTF - if the target is "out of bounds" and fired upon you own it - I guess there will be a lot more people developing a "Flinch" J Mroczka
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    who determines an

    So the answer is, if you turn down a target, open your gun and take out the shell and and look at it like you have never seen a shotgun shell in your life, put it back and and shoot the next bird.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    who determines an

    John, there's no latitude between "lost" a FTF. If the target is legal and you voluntarily don't fire, it's lost.

    If you voluntarily didn't shoot because you thought is was illegal abut it really was legal, the both the scorer and the referee were in error. It was lost.

    If, on the other hand, you did not fire because you thought was illegal and it was, then the referee and scorer were in error because it was "no target."

    If your not firing was involuntary, then it was a failure to fire.

    It's depressing to see how few posters know rules which have been in place for 15 years and the same goes for scorers and referees as well, of course.

    Neil
     
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