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White flyer biodegradeable targets

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by sagepost2, Oct 21, 2009.

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  1. sagepost2

    sagepost2 Member

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    A while back there was a thread about biodegradeable targets,but i can't find it.I know they are cheaper but that's about all.It seems that there were other problems too.Does anyone have some experience about them that you can share?Our club is thinking about buying some. Thanks Gary
     
  2. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    They will kill the grass on a skeet field, but that may not be an issue for your trap field. Shoot often while we can, Bob
     
  3. Target13

    Target13 Active Member

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    Sagepost2 - if you'd like to email me, I'd be glad to answer any and all questions about the White Flyer Biodegradables or better yet, call me at 1-800-322-7855 and ask for me personally - I'm in the office all this week.

    Thanks.


    Phil Murray
    White Flyer Targets
    Houston,TX
     
  4. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Our Club has been using White Flyer's Bio since early 2001 continously. We have had no problems with equipment or breakage and throw 200K+ annually.

    There are various comments relating to the sulfur binder, but outside Chicago we get plenty of moisture to enjoy the effects of bio-degradation. We have yet to suffer any ill effects as offered by others such as equipment erosion, soil pH or groundwater contamination.

    We do nothing special to our equipment and house the targets in an uninsulated garage. White Flyer's Bio has improved our bottom line since we no longer have to trash piles of unsightly target debris.

    I have seen combination skeet/trap fields experience turf problems when target debris lands on manicured grass - if that is your situation - that would be the only caveat to mention.

    respectfully offered,

    Jay Spitz
     
  5. Allen-MX8

    Allen-MX8 Member

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    My club doesn't like the Bios as they cause a build up of residue on the plate of our Pat-Trap causing many broken targets.

    We had to start "sanding" the plate to remove the residue then no broken targets.

    However for the above reason we went back to the pitch targets and we don't have the breakage problem.

    Also, the bios did kill the vegetation.

    Allen
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    They do contain sulfur and when the dust is combined with water, an acid is produced. If moisture is a problem in the trap house, the acid could affect the trap machine. If the house remains dry, there should be little problem.

    Jay- Sulfur is not biodegradable. The target boxes state that on the outside, but the box is clearly not labeled correctly.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Pat:

    I'm not sure exactly what your referring to when you say the box isn't labeled correctly. Not being a chemist, I can't comment on what degrades or what does not. It was my understanding that sulfur is used a "binder" to hold the product together - what percentage of the product is considered sulfur, I cannot answer.

    All I can say is that after 8 years of constantly throwing targets and I'm the guy that recommended using the Bios at our range, the accumulated target debris is nothing compared to what we would have if we allowed pitch targets to pile upon one another.

    So if sulfur, in and of itself, is not bio-degradable as you mentioned above, whatever percentage of the target is made up of sulfur must therefore be small.

    regards all

    jay
     
  8. sagepost2

    sagepost2 Member

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    Thanks to all for your comments, I'll bring up your responses at our meeting tonight. Gary
     
  9. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Our Pat-trap is in a damp location and the Bio's raised hell with her. And all of our vegitation did die off. Since we switched back no machine problems and we have grass growing. Dave T.
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    jay- I don't know how much sulfur is in the target. The boxes are labeled, or at least used to be labeled biodegradable, but actually they are just partially water soluble. You will see less target debris because of the targets solubility in water. They will lower the pH of the soil and many clubs have killed a lot of grass with these targets.

    Target debris accumulation over the years at a club interests me. One might think that there should be a mound where the targets fall after a club has been shooting targets for many years. But, it isn't there. During the first environmental testing at Vandalia, target debris was found up to 12 feet below the surface. My Geologist friends have told me that things move both up and down in the soil. I am just not smart enough to understand how.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Pat, You do get mounds on a skeet field. The difference in the two games makes the reason obvious. Shoot often while we can, Bob
     
  12. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    We used to get mounds of pitch targets which required us to pay for a "bobcat", dumpster and waste hauling. We had to perform TCLP testing to determine leaching of PNAs etc... before we could trash 'em.

    We do get some vegetation kill, but our operation is trap only, so cosmetically, the impact to us is negligible. One benefit of the veggie kill, for us, is that we don't get waterfowling nests that required a permit to move or for egg shaking...

    As for pH, we're just not seeing that impact. For those who are experiencing equipment issues from exposure to the elements... I have to imagine that's going to lead to other issues ultimately and would encourage steps to better protect the equipment.

    As far as the labeling, our boxes still say "biodegradable". But again, not being an expert, wouldn't one have to imagine that if they didn't meet the definition of biodegradable, that would lead to other "trade" issues?!

    The flipside of the issue, is how much "better" is a product that is made from oil byproducts (pitch and tar) and will sit for centuries/milleniums buried in massive quantities within landfills?! Is that better for our ecology than a little veggie kill today?!

    Taking that argument further... can pH be corrected with an additive for those environments impacted?! Maybe we should revise our landscaping to compensate for target debris... maybe the shooting sports industry should carry the flag for recycling - anyone else considering the impact of millions (billions) of unused primer cups, wads and hulls?!

    If the industry would recycle, I would make an effort to drop off deprimed cups and old hulls at a shop who collects... idea?!

    No perfect solutions, however one issue is uncontested - if we're on the targets they break.

    respectfully responding,

    jay
     
  13. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Good points Jay. We shoot up against a steep hill. Once the vegatation died we had alot of erosion. Liming didn't help.
     
  14. joe blow

    joe blow TS Member

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    We had a DEP agent at our club this spring. Along with the lead problem, he told us that after a year the broken clay targets have to be removed as waste. We are in Pennsylvania.
     
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