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Which weighs more

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by rocktire, Aug 24, 2009.

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  1. rocktire

    rocktire Member

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    Here is a question that is posed to me pretty often. Which weighs more in a given volume. I know the answer, but want to see how many others do. I have argued this numerous times.

    Question is.

    Given a container say the volume of 1 cup. Would the container weigh more filled with 9 shot or 4 shot?

    Someone out there try it and let everyone know.
     
  2. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

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    9 shot.



    tony
     
  3. WarEagle2017

    WarEagle2017 Active Member

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  4. WarEagle2017

    WarEagle2017 Active Member

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    Onother Question of the same Quality : What weights more a TON OF #8 SHOT OR A TON OF FEATHERS ????????????????///
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    rocktire- You opened up the packing theory. If you put bowling balls and #9 shot in two equal theoretical volumes that were infinite (had no edges) the two containers would hold the same volume. But you are placing the two sizes of shot in a container with edges. Because of the edge effect of the packing theory, the #9 shot would actually weigh more. If you can find a coffee cup with no edges to put the shot in, they would weigh the same.

    The packing theory was fun to work with in school. I liked visualizing a volume without any edges.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    To the original question, the container weight would be the same in both instances because it is the same container.

    Of course the intended question was in which case will the contents of the container have the greatest mass. The answer of course is the #9 shot because it has the higher bulk density. (less void fraction)
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    What Pat and wolfram said.

    To visualize this....fill a coffee can with driveway rocks. Is it full?

    Now take pea gravel, and put it in the can. You can add pea gravel and it doesn't change the volume of the can, but you've added more mass.

    Now take sand, and pour it in the can. Again, you haven't changed the volume of the can, but you've added more mass with the smaller particle size.

    Smaller particles (in your example, the number 9 shot) pack better into a defined volume than larger particles will.
     
  8. rocktire

    rocktire Member

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    To add more confusion to this think of this in the question. Take a piece of #4 shot and split it into 4 peices then measure the surface area of each piece and total it. It will be greater than the 1 piece is. Now take those 4 pieces and try to make them fit in as small of an area as the full piece does.

    Grind a five gallon bucket of corn and see if it will fit back in the same bucket.
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I think they will weigh the same. If the shot is the same density.

    At least 9's and 7 1/2's did, after making a likely, if rough. "correction" for the differing levels of antimony.

    The trouble with testing it now is that you have no idea what's in shot these days.

    Neil
     
  10. rocktire

    rocktire Member

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    this has been an ongoing question for years with mathematicians and scholars alike. The sphere packing theory. I think the answer is it depends. Depends on the size and shape of the container mostly. Think the amount of voids is different depending on how many corners and walls (flat spots) are in the container. I tried it with 5 drops with a 138 charge bar using 7.5 and 9 shot and they were virtually the same weight. Too rough to figure. I have always wondered why Hornady sells different shot bushings for different size shot.

    In my simple mind more surface area means more voids. But there is a limit to this theory.
     
  11. WarEagle2017

    WarEagle2017 Active Member

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    Ok Guys Here is another one.. How much dirt ( material- earth ) would you get out of a Hole that is 6'long X 6' wideX 6" Deep in cubic feet ?????
     
  12. JJJ

    JJJ TS Member

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    Wolfram is correct. Always remember the smaller the size the more the surface area increase. That's why you use scraped or chopped ice in a mix drink,versus ice cubes. By making the particles smaller you increase the surface area & the drink gets colder faster. What's this have to do with the original question? Forget all that I have said,except the fact Wolfram is correct.
    Joe Jordan
     
  13. DUSTER 99

    DUSTER 99 TS Member

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    DRHUNER,
    You wouldn't get any dirt out of that hole, because it is a hole!!!
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    DUSTER 99- You beat me to the correct answer. EE- you missed it, but you are right about excavating contractors. They measure dirt by the truck load, not by cubic yards.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. rocktire

    rocktire Member

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    So back to what JJJ has said if you have more surface area wouldn't you have more voids. Yes they would be smaller voids but with more surface area you would have more potential air space as well.

    The answer to the excavating question is the hole would be 18 cubic ft, but the amount of dirt out of the hole depends on the type of soil and how the person loads it etc.

    As I said it is a question of voids.
     
  16. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    EE

    Can't remember the answer, but it has to do with ounces avoirdupois versus ounces troy.

    If I recall, the gold will weigh a little more.
     
  17. schockstrap

    schockstrap Active Member

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    I always seem to miss these fun threads...

    I'm probably not up on sphere packing theory as much as some of these guys, but I seem to remember that the packing density for spheres was basically a constant value (i.e., it didn't depend on the size of the sphere). Of course, that is assuming that the spheres are significantly smaller in diameter than the container (as appears to be the case in the originally posed question). I'm also not sure that I understand why so many folks brought up surface area in relation to this problem...

    timb99,

    I don't think your example of rocks, pea gravel, and sand really applies to this problem because you'll always get greater packing density when the particles are of more than one size. The original question asked about #9 shot vs. #4 shot... The same volume of #4 shot and #9 shot should weigh the same if the pellets are true spheres. Mixing #4 and #9 shot would allow you to get more weight of lead into that same volume.

    --Dan
     
  18. rocktire

    rocktire Member

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    And we have a winner. If you have 4 and 9 shot alone and the container is sifnificantly bigger than the spheres they will weigh virtually the same. If you mix the two you will get more weight in the same container than with either by themselves. So many people believe that the smaller shot will weigh more and it is easy to think this, but surface area and packing density cancel each other out with spheres.

    good job shockstrap
     
  19. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    I'd have bet good money.

    I'm going to have to test this myself.
     
  20. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    How much wood could a woodchuck chuck?
     
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