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Which load should I use?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by poe/IL, Oct 15, 2008.

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  1. poe/IL

    poe/IL TS Member

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    Over the weekend I patterned my Full choked Remington Model 48 Sportsman at 40 yards.

    All loads were #8's with 1 1/8th oz of shot but I did change the FPS on two of the shells. Wish I had of bought two more boxes of shells and done everything equally. I needed another box of Federal 1145 FPS and a box of Winchester 1200 FPS to make the test complete.

    The brand shells I used were Federal T116, Remington STS20SC, Winchester AA128, and Remington Gun Club GC12L,

    I shot 5 rounds each shell and this was after I had warmed the gun up. Not a great test I know but I thought it was adequate.

    The Winchester's were only 1145 FPS and produced the best numbers of the day. An average of 361 pellets per 30" target. High number being 382.

    The Remington 1200 produced an average of 356 pellets per 30" target. Second best of the day.

    The Federals 1200 FPS produced an average of 340 pellets per 30" target. One shell only produced 320 pellets which was the lowest of the 3 brands used and the 320 may have been a fluke. It was way lower than the other 4 shells. Throw out the 320 and the 4 shot average jumps to 357 pellets in a 30" target.

    Last and least were the Remington 1145 FPS. They were pitiful. The average was 303 pellets per target. Twenty pellets below the density range.

    OK so I know the Winchesters put out the best figures with 1 1/8 oz loads 1145 FPS. Federals are much cheaper and really not that far out of the ball park if I throw out the one round I called a "FLUKE" Should I conserve money with those figures?

    Now the big question. This is what confuses me. I've been reading a lot lately about using lighter loads and hotter shells being the way to go. I'm talking 1 oz loads 1250 FPS instead of 1 1/8 oz 1145 PFS which seems to be a super load for my full choked gun. Or is it best to use the 1 1/8 1200 FPS? I've always been a big believer in the more pellets you could put in the air the better chance you had of busting the clay. That is the American way isn't it.. Bigger is better?

    I realize there are pellets strings and not all the shot reaches the target at the same time but what is that length of time? I don't think I've ever seen that in print? Also how far can a clay fly at its maximum speed in say 1/100th of a second? 1/100th of a second being the difference in the time I'm guessing it might take the full string to reach the target point. If that is correct than that clay is only going to move about 6 1/2 inches? If I have a nice 30" pattern and I'm doing my job shouldn't I be OK?

    Us dummies like to shoot also. Maybe I'm way off base here. I'm talking way over my head. I usually just go shoot and worry about how many clays I bust but you guys have me interested in all the science that goes into your shooting. I respect your opinions greatly and I want to learn more. Is it a fact that the 1 oz loads shoot a much flatter pattern and that more pellets reach the kill zone than with a 1200 PFS 1 1/8 oz load?.

    Thanks for any info you can provide, Brian
     
  2. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Good for you in your efforts to get real data. Thats a lot of work. You already know the truth about shells and targets but now that you have additional factoids cluttering up your mind you better use the shell you have the most faith in. If I could afford them, I would use the STS ammo. The Federal shells are a very good value and I doubt you will loose any birds because they don't work well enough. We will need an additional six months of conversation/group therapy if you want to get into 1 1/8 Oz Vs 1 Oz or #8 Vs #7 1/2 or even CLAYS Vs Red Dot.

    If you keep this up you will either go insane or broke, probably both, but you will have fun so welcome to the club.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You are doing fine, Brian. It's great that you actually went out to find something out for yourself.

    One important thing is missing from tests, however, and that is how many pellets were in each of those shells to start with. Especially with less-costly ammo, you really can't count on anything, pellet-wise. The only suspect I see is those Remingtons which I see as about 15% down relative to all the others, which are all basically the same.

    But you want to know what to shoot and with the data you've given us, I'd say any of the best three. Yes, that 320 from the Federal is a fluke; you will get about one in ten patterns like that with _any_ shell. A spread of at least 10% is almost universal in ten shots.

    That one-ounce 1250 shell you are mulling over will kick about like the light 1 1/8th ounce shells you are using. They will work fine in all likelihood. All you need, after all, is enough pellets in the inner 20 inches or so and you can get them either way.

    Don't even think about shot string in any of this. All it does is make patterns worse than they are on paper. The data you are after is in print, but it's pretty complicated. One of these days I'll put up the best analysis I've found, but it says, in brief, that it's not worth making any decisions on.

    If you reload, you can save money with one ounce and that's as good a reason as any I've seen shooting them. All the technical stuff is pretty much beside the point.

    Good work; you now know more about the way your gun shoots than 90% of the people here, and you've even succeeded in screening out a likely poor choice of shells and what an important finding that is.

    Neil
     
  4. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Besides the additions Neil pointed to, I would also want to know the distribution of the pellets in your three best loads. What I wouldn't do is shoot the Remingtons.

    Nothing magical about one ounce loads. What do you mean flatter? Is it the speed that your reffering to and the fact it has less gravity effect versus the slower loads?

    As Neil points out, I commend you also for taking the time to learn.
     
  5. poe/IL

    poe/IL TS Member

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    First off to all that replied let me say this.... Thank you very much for replying and all the kind words you said. I am really getting into this and at present I am not that great nor do I know that much about what I'm doing. I'm having fun though and I think that is the name of the game. I don't expect to be a handicap shooter nor do I expect to shoot at any big trap tournaments. Its a hobby to me. I don't drink or chase fast women anymore so I needed something to do. *smile. I used to be a pretty fair wing shot in my day but I'm now pushing 70 real hard and my eyes aren't what they used to be. I'm still working on the gun to get the fit proper. I'm close but I think I need to go to a Monte Carlo stock as I have a long neck and I find my self leaning my head to the gun. This will be my next correction but I'm going to do it first with a pad before I order a new stock. Secondly I'm thinking real hard about having the forcing cone lengthened and also having the gun threaded for screw in chokes. That will all come later after I run it past y'all

    wolfram, thank you for the smiles and I can believe your right on all counts of going insane plus broke. LOL.

    Neil, I really do not know the exact number of pellets in each load. I'm sure manufacturers have tolerances and some shells may be on the high end and some on the low end but that would be the same with powder too. I'd say unless you count each pellet it would be impossible to know. The same would be true with every grain of powder. I do see your point and I'm sure its a valid one. As far as I know a 1 1/8 load should have 461 pellets in it. I'd hope that MFG's don't allow over a small percentage of tolerance in their production lines? maybe 1% - 2%. That would round off to 5 to 10 pellets. Again I have no idea. Thank you very much for your comments. I love looking at your charts etc.

    pheasantmaster to try and answer some of your questions. First on the Winchester 8's. 1 1/8th oz. 1145 FPS, The pellet count which was 382 my best load. I had 75% of the shot in a 26.54 diameter circle.

    The Remington 8's 1 1/8th oz 1200 FPS, pellet count which was 380 which turns out to be my second best single shell had 75% of the shot in a 26.61 diameter circle.

    The Federal #8's 1 1/8th oz 1200 FPS, pellet count of 369 had 75% of the shot in a 25.27 diameter circle. Never paid much attention to the Federal percentage before you ask that question. It would appear to be a tighter pattern but that could be maybe because it has less pellets? Shouldn't be though since this is a percentage.

    I hope this is the info you meant?

    By flatter I meant a shorter shot string when using the 1 oz loads vs. the 1 1/8 oz loads. Some place and I don't remember where I read it was like half as long as a 1 1/8 oz load which would make the 1 oz shot string approximately 6 feet. Is this info correct?

    I really thank you people for all your help. This place "ROCKS" I can't wait to get up each morning and start reading what y'all have to say. Brian
     
  6. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Brian,

    I did my share of patterning and pellet counting when I first started. Even built a patterning field on my property. After a lot of that stuff I finally found the absolute secret to trapshooting.

    Here it is for free:

    Shoot so that most of your pellets,(doesn't matter how many, what size or how fast they are going), are headed just a little above and ahead of the target. Repeat 25 times, go get another 25 shells.
     
  7. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    poe/IL, yes that was what I was asking along with the possilities of holes in those t/- 26".

    I've been addicted to doing this all my life and actually don't feel comfortable with using a new gun till I do. I've thus used up several trees in my life along with two old barns and a few sheds. Its troublesome when one becomes mental about something :)

    WHat I think Neil was getting at in pellet count was the extreme differences of pellet counts in shells. I've seen in the 420's up over 500 pellets all in 1 1/8 oz loads. between shot size (yea some give you 9's or a fair amount and others 7.5's) for 8's. Thus Neil could conclude for you that the representation of your results could not be decisive due to lack of this knowlege.

    Enjoy yourself.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Brian- Keep on working. Developing an understanding of trap loads is a goal in itself. The more you know about all aspects of trapshooting, the more fun you will have at the game.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I have found that 1145-1200 fps both pattern better in my gun. more so the 1145fps on 1 1/8oz more to 1200fps with 1oz. both factory and reloads
     
  10. Mojo

    Mojo Member

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    Brian, Being an "old school" shooter, reloading since 1979, I never gave 1 oz.
    loads much thought except maybe for 16 yard practice. I definitely subscribed
    to the "more is better" theory especially for long yardage hdcp. But after
    reading the article by D. Devault, devaultind.com/August%20Newsletter.htm , my
    brain has readjusted. I am guessing this is the same article you read about
    a target moving at 45 mph taking only 3 one hundreds of a second to pass thru
    a 30" circle. It is true that 1 oz. loads have a shorter shot string. Also, the
    faster the 1 oz. load the tighter the pattern. Whaaattt..???? This was the
    exact opposite of what I would have thought. When compared to 1 1/8, the lighter shot drop has fewer flyers do to deformation from shot jamming into the
    forcing cone. He goes on to state the shot string of 1 1/8, 1200 fps loads with the longer, 12 ft. shot string, may leave many pellets at the end of the string with little effect on breaking the target.

    Quoting: "from the time the first pellets arrive at the impact point until the last pellet in the string gets to the target the object will have moved 18 inches in flight. If the shot is in a string the 30" area is not available. This is why viewing a pattern on a flat 2-Dimension paper does not give the entire picture. If I were given a choice between a short shot string with 40 or more pellets arriving at the point of impact or a long shot string with 10 to 15 pellets arriving at the same time my choice will be for more pellets arriving at the time of impact."

    I have shot a lot of holes in brown wrapping paper over the years. But now I
    have a new view of the process and especially 1 oz. loads. Maybe soon I will
    be able to pop a box into my pouch at a registered shoot..!
     
  11. poe/IL

    poe/IL TS Member

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    What can I say..... You guys are AWESOME! Thank each and everyone of you for all the great info. Your comments help me very much. Your costing me money but heck I'm spending the kids inheritance anyway so who cares LOL.

    Thanks again Brian
     
  12. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

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    Have been recently shooting 21 grains of Green Dot under a DownRange TGT12 wad pushing 1 oz of #8 Lawrence shot out of a Gun Club hull, and I must say they have been working very well at all trap distances, and 5-Stand as well. Having confidence in a load means a lot toward smashing clays!

    AndyH
     
  13. Dednlost

    Dednlost Member

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    This is what I call pole vaulting over mouse turds. Your shooting a gun that was never made for trap shooting and is at least 40 years out of date and your worried about which load to shoot? Just get out there and shoot dammit. Point your gun so the shot will intercept the bird and thats about it.
     
  14. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Oh yea Brian, we forgot to tell you there are a few turds in this punch bowl, just ignore them.
     
  15. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    poe/IL, in the_what_its_worth category, I don't believe in the 12 foot shot string concept of 1 1/8 oz loads after viewing high speed photography. If you have the opportunity, view Kiner's recent DVD on watch the cloud there..
     
  16. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    When Remington first came out with Gun Clubs, I patterned them through my TMX and got 65% patterns on the same warm day at high altitude that gave me 80% patterns with STS premium shells. I don't believe the lead shot is as hard as the good stuff. I can use Gun Clubs for Singles but want a better shell for Handicap, even the box says for competition use STS.
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mojo- The numbers quoted by Dennis (target moves 18 inches with 12 ft. shot string) are simply incorrect. I went through the arithmetic on another post in that thread. Try it yourself with some simple, rounded numbers. Target has slowed to 35 MPH (=51.3 ft/sec), 10 ft. shot string (probably too long), and shot slowed down to 1000 ft/sec. Use a target going straight away. If you want to get into angled targets, the trig. can get more complicated.

    Dennis used some old calculations made by Winchester. These calculations assumed that neither the shot nor the target slowed down and the target was traveling at a right angle to the shooter.

    The two dimensional pattern seen on paper is essentially what is presented to the target. The shot is traveling at 12,000 inches/sec and the target is moving at 616 inches/sec.

    Pat Ireland
     
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