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which claybuster for 1 1/8 super hdp. powder

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by sport303, Mar 29, 2011.

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  1. sport303

    sport303 Member

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    i am going to load winchester super hdp. powder for the first time.which claybuster wad would be the correct one for aa hull. 21gr. powder 1 1/8.thanks jack concannon
     
  2. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Go to the website above and select a load for yourself. If the EXACT components you wish to use are not listed, call Hodgdon and inquire. I would strongly suggest selecting a load that develops under 10,000 PSI for regular and continued use. Super Handicap has a tendency to develop some pretty high pressures in many loads. It's a powder that I use with some reasonable cautions. You could also contact the wad manufacturer, but Hodgdon is the powder manufacturer and the place I would go first for advice.
     
  3. tdgoose

    tdgoose Member

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    Did some experimenting with that powder over a chrony. A couple of recipes to
    duplicate new shell super hdcp were

    20.1 - AA wad - winchester primer

    20.9 - windjammer wad winchester primer

    TD
     
  4. bultobill

    bultobill TS Member

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    Hi: I saw your post. What type of winchester powder are you using there is no super hdp power on their site. My personal recomendation is good old IMR HI-skor 700x for powder preference. I recomend the lyman's shotshell reloading handbook the 5th edition or the the manuals produced by loadbooks USA. Hope this helps
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    bultobill

    Winchester Powders are now distributed through Hodgdon. www.hodgdon.com They have loads of data available online.

    Winchester Super Handicap may also be too new to have been included in the "NEW" Lyman manual, 5th edition.
     
  6. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Well, CB 1118 is the clone of the AA White 1 1/8 oz. wad... so, 20.9 gr super handicap , w209 gets you 1255 fps according to the load data.

    http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp

    Bob
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    leadvail

    You forgot to mention the pressure at 11,300 PSI. A little high for my preferences and not much room for error. One variable in the wrong direction and you may have some issues with high pressures. Things like crimp depth and other component variations can put you over the top. I don't like loading anything that is listed over 10,000 PSI for 12 ga target loads. How about a wad like the Fig 8 or Windjammer? The pressures listed are more reasonable. If the idea is to go up to 1250 fps or so, you'd be better served to use a powder like Unique, Universal Clays, or even Herco. I consider Super Handicap as a 1200 fps powder, similar to Green Dot in application. Great for proper loads around 1200, but a bit fast for heavier loads. Another solution is to reduce the amount of powder to obtain a more reasonable pressure with a lower velocity load. One other solution is to go to a hull like the Federal Gold Medal. The larger capacity hull seems to generate more reasonable pressures with this powder at the velocities you seem to desire.

    I'd still bounce it off of Hodgdon. Call them and get their take on it. They should be able to recommend a reasonable pressure load that would work just fine.

    Also, just to be sure, you are going to "weigh" your powder drops with a scale, right?
     
  8. sport303

    sport303 Member

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    thanks for all the feedback. i will be using the windjammer to keep the persure down. thanks to all jack concannon
     
  9. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Quack Shot, Please enlighten us why Hodgdon/ Winchester would list a too high of a pressure load in their data if it is more dangerous than the others shown.

    Also, I know you are aware that CB replacement wads always show less pressure, Right?

    Perhaps you should ask them to remove such a dangerous load from their lists.

    Bob

    BTW, I always drive 5- 10 mph over the speed limit too.
     
  10. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    leadvail

    Since SAAMI lists 11,500 as maximum, I consider a load listed 200 PSI under way too close to the edge. Since a component change is also in the mix, I would highly recommend starting with a lower pressure load. I have not seen any evidence that Claybusters "ALWAYS" produce lower pressures. Many times they do, but there are three possibilities with ANY component change. Pressure can stay the same, increase, or decrease. Running that close to the redline wouldn't take much to put you over the top. A manufacturer can list whatever they wish within the policies they have established. If they wish to list loads right up to the limit, it's their choice to do so. Remember the discalimers all over the data about individual responsibility and careful loading practices. It's up to the individual reloader to use common sense and caution while loading his/her own ammunition. What would happen if you were to set a crimp depth a little deeper than Hodgdon did and then take those shells out, put them in your car in the heat of the summer and let them get up to 140 degrees or so? How many of those would you be able to shoot before doing damage to your gun? Some shooters will go through many thousands of shells in the course of a year. I like my guns and don't wish harm towards fellow shooters. I try not to do stupid and foolish things and get my name in the news. It's bad publicity for gun owners and shooters of all types.

    I select loads and components in order to attain velocities and performance that I desire while keeping pressures low enough to allow for some headroom for error and variabilities. That's common sense and conservative loading practices. My advice to any reloader is to use an appropriate powder and components to reach the performance levels they desire while keeping pressures reasonable. If someone MUST use a particular powder or component, then sometimes it would be prudent to adjust the load to keep pressures reasonable, even if it means a few less feet per second. If you really take a good look at how much advantage 25 fps will give you at 35 - 40 yards, you might not consider that extra 25 fps worth taking risks for.

    When a manufacturer produces ammunition, they have the facilities to test their product for pressure and velocity under varying conditions during the production process. The average reloader does not have that resource, so we do a "guessing" game about pressures. We look in a book and take the listed pressures as "gospel". In reality, the data may have been correct when the test was done and under the conditions present at the time of testing. Having had some loads tested over the years and having had data shared from others, I have found that you may not always be able to duplicate the listed pressures. Again, there are three possibilities. You may develop the same, higher, or lower pressures with your reloads. It's a crapshoot. Like the man said....."Are you feeling Lucky?"

    Yes, I have a clean license, your Honor! :) Just don't check my GPS history and ignore the white knuckles on all of my passenger's hands and the grip marks in the dashboard. I strongly believe that since my speedometer goes up to 150, I should be able to drive at that speed where and whenever I want! If the manufacturer didn't intend me to go that fast, they wouldn't have made it go that high! I'll be sure to ask the manufacturer why they did that. :)

    But I "DO" take reasonable measures to assemble safe ammunition that should develop reasonable pressures. If I need more power or velocity, I change the load or use a bigger gun. It's a personal choice about how much "Risk" you want to take. When it's real easy to avoid it, why push the envelope?
     
  11. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Sorry Quack Shot, I pesonally don't see the same risks you do using published loading data.


    I also have seen the advantage of higher velocity loads from my yardage at the 27 and more effiecent ammunition performance at higher pressure.

    Good for you though that you found what works for you to take you to the highest level at what you consider reasonable. Bob

    BTW.. one example of cB 1118 of producing higher pressure please. Published of course.
     
  12. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    leadvail

    When you play with something that has the potential to go bang and do someone harm, a certain level of caution is just common sense. I don't push the envelope. Like I said, if I need more speed or power, I use a different load or gun. I have personally witnessed the results of careless loading practices and have had factory ammo ruin a firearm from improperly manufactured loads. I take every reasonable effort to ensure that I am loading safe ammunition. That also includes proper load selection and testing if required. All it takes to cause misery is a couple of variables stacking up in the wrong direction.

    Tell you what, you list ALL of the claybuster wad published loads and their equivalent OEM versions in identical loadings and see if you can find one. I won't take it for granted that EVERY CLAYBUSTER WAD will develop less pressure than it's original counterpart. There are also some "Original" wad designs from claybusters. Actual pressure data is sometimes hard to come by for identical loads using two different wads. When you put the "ALWAYS" condition in a comparison, it's inevitable that you will eventually find something that does not conform to your statement. I trust you have looked at EVERY published load for Claybuster wads and compared them to the OEM versions before you made your statement?

    Just for reference, go to the website above and read the first three documents carefully and see what the experts say about firearms failures. At least read the first document (100-00.pdf) and pay careful attention to the causes of catastrophic failures. Look for page 6 Item (F) 2. Pay VERY close attention to page 7 Item (H). There is a very good reason why I don't load ammunition to the upper limits of pressure. There are other experts that seem to agree with the information provided at the link. Be sure to read the first part of the second document as well. (101-100.pdf)

    You can do what you want and load what you want, but don't act too surprised if something does not work out well for you. All the extra pressure does for you is put additional stress on your firearm. If you have sufficient pressure for an appropriate powder to burn well, it can be within the limits I have established for my own ammunition. The extra pressure and velocity is not needed. If you have to go faster, use a slower powder that develops more reasonable pressures and you probably won't need to worry about finding all of the pieces to send to the lab I have referenced above, for analysis.
     
  13. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Quack Shot, We all know that extended use of loads over saami cause issues. Instead of blowing a smoke screen, Please again, list one instance of a cb 1118 showing higher pressure and also now one instance of a gun blowing up using published loading data...... facts would substantiate your rhetoric. THX, Bob
     
  14. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Leadvail,

    It is not necessary to run at higher pressures to achieve higher velocities. There are powders that will do that without pushing maximums. If you believe high pressure (near maximum) offers any advantage what would it be? Why use a load that generates 11,000 psi to get them same performance as one running at 10,000 psi?

    Like Quacker, I keep my loads at 10,000 psi or less to gain an added safety factor. It seems like a sensible approach.

    Don Verna
     
  15. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Don, my point is using published data, even if loaded at the higher end, isn't going to endanger ones self. If you are unsure of your equipment or your abilities to produce handloads, I don't have a issue with you loading below some magic number, 10,000 psi, but don't tell everyone else they have too because you are not proficient. How much factory ammo is loaded over 10,000 psi?

    Bob
     
  16. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Bob,

    I recognize I may not be "proficient" and I suspect many reloaders suffer the same lack of consistency from what I see and hear. Generally, most of us are better off with using a load that offers a greater safety factor as there are variables some people either do not control very well or ignore. Crimp depth, wad petals folded over, wads askew when seated, variations in shot and powder drops, "crap" in the hull that reduces case volume etc. etc.

    My guess is factory loads run on the high side of pressure. This is because most companies are run by bean counters; and if they can use 18 grains of a faster powder instead of 19.5 grains of a slower powder they will do so. They will pocket the 7.7 % savings in powder.

    You are correct in stating that not everyone needs to be conservative. I trust you will agree MOST people would be better off with a more forgiving load selection. As there are no advantages to high pressure loads (unless saving a nickle/dime per box is important to someone) it is prudent to recommend lower pressure loads when a choice is possible.

    Quack's comments and mine are not directed to you personally as we do not know how "proficient" you are. People of all skill levels read this forum and so it is better to suggest "safer" load selections.


    Don Verna
     
  17. leadvail

    leadvail Member

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    Don,
    11500 psi is well within the saami guidelines and firearms are proof tested at almost twice that amount....any advantage or cushion of safety at 10000 from 11500 would be minimal I would think. But I give up, you win. Whatever makes you feel safer.


    Since you feel there are NO ADVANTAGES to using loads producing over the magical 10000 psi, perhaps the loading companies should remove them from all of the published data so we wouldn't need you and Quack Shot to save us from the devil.

    Bob
     
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