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Where's Joe Kuhn?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Brian in Oregon, Aug 13, 2009.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Where

    Aren't we way overdue for a new Frankenshotgun?<br>
    <br>
    I always look forward to his projects.
     
  2. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I've settled down quite a bit, but I do want a scope with no parallax mounted two inches above a barrel. That way I can hold the gun straight out horizontally, look over the house and just move left or right to smoke it. This with a flat shooting gun. The advantages of a clear view down to the house with no barrel in the way have to be exerienced. It's almost like cheating.

    Dennis DeVault switched me to a 100 percent high gun (during clinic) and I'm enjoying that setup for the moment. What I do is look over the house, hold the gun below my eye hold, call and duplicate the eye/gun relationship on the moving target. Works nice and feels good enough to say it will go with me into the future. This sets me up nicely for the fall wobble league.

    Had a good year shooting a little ATA around home and at the state shoot. Shot a short yardage 97 to win a runner up buckle, 99 at 16s for a first in B class. Would like to do bordering state shoots and Grand...

    Projects are limited to visual aspects of shooting.

    Good to hear from you.
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I meant what I said in a basic context to let my friends here know what's up. EE, what's up with you? How've you been shooting this summer?
     
  4. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Have you seen the EOTech model that has only a dot with no ring around it?
     
  5. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Can you take that thick extra rim off or is that part of the mounting system?

    I like the circle for shotgunning, but I bet I could get used to a dot if it's bright enough for sunny days. The circle is one of the reasons I liked a flat shooter. You can see right through it. Takes away the whole reason for a high poi. Target never disappears from your view. Circle sweeps right through the target as you whack it. This makes for an intersection game instead of an an approach game. I find intersection easier. It's more sure.

    "100% parallax free" means the dot stays on target even if you move away from the comb, right? I'd like to try one without that. Allows for a bad habit. But if you're going to stay with a scope, does it matter?

    Never tried doubles with a scope. I'd have to do that and be completely confident in it before switching to a scope for good. That thick rim is sort of in the way, although I've had plenty of singles targets get outside the rim and never noticed it when moving to the target. I think it would work.
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    "Can you take that thick extra rim off or is that part of the mounting system?" Do you mean the armored shield around the sight? Yes, it is removable. In fact, when Bushnell was selling the less expensive version, the did not have the shield on their models. Since then Bushnell has changed the design completely.<br>
    <br>
    The 65 MOA circle is, for me, way to distracting for hunting, especially "snap shooting" running coyotes. I prefer the 1 MOA dot only. But my application is a rifle, not a shotgun (the pic is my Remington R-15 with an EOTech 552, since wrapped with camo tape). If and when I replace mine with a 1 MOA only model, I've been wanting to get a saddle mount for my spare hunting 1187 and try it for trap with the 65 MOA model. I crossfire without a sight aid, like a Uni-Dot. I'm thinking an EOTech might also prevent crossfiring, since it is designed for shooting with both eyes open.<br>
    <br>
    100% parallax free is absolutely true with an EOTech. Unlike a regular scope, and most red dot sights, you do not need a repeatable cheek weld and eye alignment. You can put the dot in the corners of the sight when aiming and still be dead on for accuracy. This is because, being a holographic sight, the dot is "projected" onto the target as if it located at the target's position. If you put the dot on a rabbit at 100 yards, it's as if the dot were actually 100 yards out, not in the sight. In fact, it is as if you put a laser beam dot on the target, though the EOTech emits no beam. That makes the EOTech a good sight for bad conditions, where mud, snow or even physical damage might render part of the display useless. Having said that, do not confuse 100% parallax free with sighting in. If you raise the sight on the gun, you'll have to readjust the elevation (and possibly the windage).<br>
    <br>
    EOTech has some new models that are significantly shorter and use a crossways 123 battery instead of N cells or the longer AA's. This is attractive for reducing weight and is a much trimmer looking sight. I'm cranking up the brightness under bright daylight conditions in semi-desert conditions, all day long, so from an economics standpoint I'll stick with the AA models. But the 123 cell model would be almost ideal for trap.<br>
    <br>
    One thing I really like about the EOTech is that as I get older, I'm having more and more problems with iron sights. The rear sight gets blurrier and blurrier. With the EOTech 1 MOA dot (actually it's one-third MOA but most people see it as 1 MOA) I'm making precision shots at 100 yards as easily as using a scope. It's a definite replacement for iron sights, notwithstanding the battery issue (in which case you use backup iron sights).<br>
    <br>
    I did try an EOTech on a handgun, but it simply took too long to line it up, though it was faster than a scope.<br>
    <br>
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    A scope just might help your cross firing, especially if you jack it up a little over the barrel. Center of my scope is 2 inches over the top of my barrel and there is nothing for your off eye to pick up on - no bead, no barrel, no rib, nothing. It's worth a try. Good luck.

    Center of scope should be directly in front of eye with gun level. I shot mine 50/50 poi.

    Had one guy at the club put a red dot (Doctor) on his gun and set the red dot on the bead. What's the use of that?

    Where's your poi on your shotgun?
     
  8. K80Dude

    K80Dude Member

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    OK Joe I didn't get a chance to talk to you at the club tonight but what happened with your gun??? Seeing you sitting there with a file going away at that beautiful stock is enough to make a grown man cry! I thought Dennis had it all set and you where breaking targets! What changed?????

    PS I have to say I have my PFS dialed in now. Thanks to Bill Borman spending some time with me Saturday I am really loving the PFS.

    David
     
  9. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    We moved the comb to the right to correct a cant. Now the gun is fattening my lip. Working on it.

    Bill mentioned allen wrenches and screws versus files and wood...Hah!

    See you soon.
     
  10. K80Dude

    K80Dude Member

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    LOL that is good. Bill told me last night at dinner that he has been there done that. I really have to say the PFS is awesome. I am very sold on it, sure it isn't as sexy a wood stock but boy can you get it exactly the way you want it. If you change or decide to keep tweaking it its fast and easy. I miss having a sexy wood stock but I will tell you my gun has never fit me as well. I actually have to learn how to shoot it now that it fits me!

    David
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    There's no pistol grip with the pfs. I'm sold on pistol grips.
     
  12. K80Dude

    K80Dude Member

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    I am sure you could have one made out of wood.
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Yep, mostly. Dennis improved on it by making it come straight down rather than swept back slightly. Should have shot his during the clinic.
     
  14. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Joe, it was good to meet you in person at the Illinois State Shoot. Wish we could have had a chance to talk more, I like your innovative ideas....whether they work or not. I saw a fellow shooting this year who put the stock under his arm, looked like in his arm pit, someone said he was shooting off the end of the barrel....and he was breaking targets! What If.....you mounted a halo, or a circle/dot on the end of the barrel and just moved the end of the barrel to the target using this sight? Someone also talked about a man in a wheelchair at the Vandalia Grand years ago shooting a very long barreled shotgun and shot by just looking at the end of the barrel. Maybe you have already tried this method or more food for your thought! Biff
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    And I've got one more gun to build. Comb even with top of bbl. Scope straight forward from eye. But first, will a scope work for doubles? Hah!
     
  16. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    EE I feel your pain.

    Joe it looks like the gun you have there has the comb in line with the top of the barrel or darn close to it. I don't understand why you would need to build a different one?

    I will say that is a very nice and probably expensive gun to experiment on, if you are building another you must have a very good job, an understanding wife, or a trust fund or all of the above. LOL

    Nothing wrong with experimenting so don't take this wrong, constructive criticism is my goal.

    With the design pictured you are losing one of the basic advantages of a shotgun and that is your hands tend to be inline with each other which promotes natural pointing and smooth movement.


    Your gun has lost that and I would assume you are going more for a pivot point close to your chest? How about mounting the gun in the center of the chest? Or possibly a dual arrangement where the stock forks and rests on both shoulders with the barrel in the middle? I think there were some WW2 antiaircraft guns made like that and they were shooting fast moving aerial targets so maybe there is something there?


    The pistol grip does have the advantage of a straighter trigger finger which will promote a better trigger pull but that seems to be something further down the list of importance with a shotgun since we tend to not be as precise as say trying to make a 300 yd rifle shot. Do you use a release trigger?


    I have tried to do quick instinctive type point shooting with my Colt Sporting rifle model AR15 which has that type of pistol grip and find it difficult, I do much better with my conventional stocked Ruger Ranch Rifle in that type of shooting. I'm talking about snap shooting, just pulling the gun up and shooting a point target, maybe a can on the ground not aerial targets.

    Red dot sights are wonderful but you are aiming when you use them so all classical shotgunning principals are out the window. Is that the goal, to reinvent shotgun methodology?

    You will definitely stand the shotgun world on its head if you win the Grand with that gun. Best of luck to you.
     
  17. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    SBE,

    Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I see what you mean about the hands not being in line. With the pulling of the trigger hand down for the grip the other 4 fingers are more vertical than in a normal stock. I haven't experienced that as a problem. I think the trigger finger is more important than the position of the other 4 fingers. In fact I like the hand to be more vertical and consider going even more vertical as gained leverage in the mount is very natural and supports a pre mount. Trap is not a snap shot game. It's a pre-mount game. I'm not sure why you bring that up.

    I do not use a release trigger. Since the trigger finger is quite horizontal I believe I have all the natural pointing characteristics I can milk out of my hands. I often practice shooting live birds with my pointer fingers when watching Johnny fish and hold my right hand out to the side and my pointer under my cheek. Now that feels natural, but I've not been able to make a gun that allows for that. When I tried, it recoiled into my face because I had to tip the whole gun on it's side. Let's not go there. I threw that design out long ago.

    Pivot point is close to my chest which is my center. Aren't we supposed to pivot from our center? I believe this does reinforce correct pivoting and help me avoid arm shooting.

    Your assumption that someone is aiming when they use a red dot is just not right. If they are looking at the target and the red circle swings through it as they pull the trigger, but they keep their eyes on the target, then how is that aiming? They would have to look at the reticle directly for it to be aiming. You can reticle check just like you can bead check and believe me, you will get the same results. I don't reticle check.

    I say shooting a flat poi with a circle reticle is an intersection exercise instead of an approach exercise. At the moment I'm shooting a 100% high gun with a rib, so I look over the house, hold the gun below that and repeat this setup on the moving target. This is an approach task. As you approach the hard focus area around the target you shoot. It is working well after finally understanding it, but the intersection exercise has to be tried. There were times with my scoped gun that everything happened so quickly but under control that I was truely amazed. So were the guys shooting next to me. They would stop and look at me and wonder, how did he do that? It was like cheating because I could hold the reticle where ever I wanted to get the shortest distance to the target, but look over the edge of the house to get a jump on the bird. Intersect. Done. Wow.

    Let me repeat: I could hold the reticle where ever I wanted to get the shortest distance to the target, but look over the edge of the house to get a jump on the bird. Call, eyes on, intersect. Done. Vision is unencumbered by bbl.

    You can hold a standard gun to get the shortest distance to the target and look over the house, but you have to look past the bbl. People learn to do this of course, but it's more difficult that my setup.

    If the scope is mounted above the bore as high as the eye is above the cheek pocket (my design), the barrel will be out of the way and you loose the original reason for high poi guns. There's a nice article in Trapshooting USA about canting a gun where the writer discusses the original reasons for going to a rib and a high poi. It's because the designer realized most shooters were trying to see their target and shooting under the clay. So he tried a high poi. That is not required when the thing that does the covering is out of the way.

    Don't wait for me at the Grand. My kids are 14 and 11 and Johnny wants to play baseball this next year. My kids are more important than my hobby, but the design aspects are what I truely love. So thanks again for the conversation.

    Oh yeah, the picture doesn't represent the gun well. The comb is in line with the bottom of the barrel. It's just that if I'm starting from scratch, top of comb will be in line with top of barrel and that feels natural in terms of pointability.

    Will go back to my Remington for further design. But there's still plenty of nice shooting weather before Winter so I get to use my Mach One & tear drop thumb hole stock. What I really want to know is how thin can you make the rim on a Holosight before you wreck it?

    Joe
     
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