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Where The Heck are The 50 yard StAkEs??

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mixer, Nov 2, 2011.

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  1. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    The 50yd stake should be 150 feet or 1800 inches or 45,720 millimeters out there somewhere. Look harder, you'll find it.

    Eric
     
  2. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Jr, they were removed because of those having the power of change didn't know exactly how they were used by the older experienced shooters? The pins told the shooter the targets were a tad short or a tad long. A stationary gage so to speak. Also did away with was the old height rule of 8 to 12 feet high at 10 yards out and made it 8 to 10 and recommended a 9-1/2 foot setting for ATA targets? What happens now? The move is toward a higher more face target and God only knows the real height some are set at! Why didn't the Einsteins leave that rule alone in the first place if they wanted HIGH targets? OH, I almost forgot, some creative club manager came up with the bright idea to elevate the front of the trap machine to give the targets a lot more square inches to hit!! Slow them down a tad and not throw them quite SO far also helped a lot too!! Helped what? let us count the ways!!

    Hap
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hap, if you don't approve of high targets, how can you possibly object to the change from 8-to-12 to 8-to-10?

    The rule for as long as I can remember has been such-and-such a distance in still air. If the air is not still, all bets are off regarding where the bird will fall except they will fall short.

    Beside, I think stakes _are_ required where terrain permits, aren't they? Why yes they are, right here!

    "Where terrain allows, a visible stake must be placed on the centerline of the trap on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is Point B (Point F, Diagram II).


    This is your chance, Hap! You always complain about people who allowed cheating with target angles, and, I assume, you will stand up as the rest didn't. When you get to a club, if there are no stakes, I think you must file a complaint with the ATA, if only to prove your credentials as a non-cheater.

    I'll be reading the official minutes assiduously. I expect to see you there.

    Neil

    . . . by the way, elevating the front of the trap machine has no effect on anything except that the body of the trap has to be lowered.The bird does not show "more face." Isn't there a whole thread about that in the last year or so?
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Neil, our height rule states targets set at 8 to 10 feet 10 yards out. Intentionally setting them above 12 to 16 feet high is called what on a still day? My complaint is why have a rule at all if it's not enforced or followed to the best of our ability, regardless of which rule is discussed.

    "This is your chance, Hap! You always complain about people who allowed cheating with target angles, and, I assume, you will stand up as the rest didn't. When you get to a club, if there are no stakes, I think you must file a complaint with the ATA, if only to prove your credentials as a non-cheater."

    I can just see that playing out in real time Neil!! I make a valid complaint and some super slick investigates the office papers and calls it a no harm no foul?? No thanks, I have a delegate that does that sort of work. I will file a complaint if I find it necessary and have the backing of being right! Don't hold your breath though, I wouldn't want to get on your bad side at all?? Regardless of how the delegates determine which target setting is best for the organization, I'll continue shooting soft or tough targets as long as I'm able.

    Concerning the more target face thingie, didn't you ask Barry Roach how that worked a couple years back also? I think I still have parts of that discussion around here somewhere.

    Hap
     
  5. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    "Where terrain allows, a visible stake must be placed on the centerline of the trap on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is Point B (Point F, Diagram II).

    The "must", above, has been changed to "may".

    Can anyone guess why?
     
  6. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    Do you really need a 50 yd stake to tell if targets are good or bad? It seems like most people that shoot a fair amount of registered targets have a pretty good sense of what constitutes a good (legal) target.
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Rules, we don't need no stinking rules. HMB
     
  8. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    According to my lay interpretation of the rules... distance Sec13E is one the method and setting by speed, Sec13F is an alternative...

    "Note: target speed may be set by distance as above or by speed as determined by a radar gun or chronograph. Target must be set by measured speed or distance"

    If you like your stakes keep using them...

    Jay
     
  9. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Hi

    The "stake (50yd)" is good when the wind is "calm". My preference is a height pole, a good radar gun, an experienced target setter and lastly a squad not too shy to ask for a change when warranted.

    Regards

    W&W
     
  10. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    The stake?

    it's at the bottom of the ravine. 50 yards out, 125 feet down.....
     
  11. Sam Ogle

    Sam Ogle Member

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    At our gun club; we put 50 yard stakes out with a piece of white poly pipe over them, so they were clearly visible. Older shooters claimed they were further than 50 yards. We had placed them using a 100 yard tape to within ONE INCH of 50 yards.
    It seemed no matter, some complained anyway.
    It is part of a game, like everyone driving 5mph over the speed limit. The shooters want easier targets. On doubles; some shooters complained because the targets were flying outside the stakes....the MINIMUM width stakes.
    If you are running a gun club, and your competition throws "softer" targets, and you lose ATA shooters because you follow the rules to the letter, it is difficult to see shooters not show up because you throw "illegal" targets when you know for a fact they are absolutely legal.
    I expect this argument to go on until we are all dead and in the dirt, and then another generation will continue with it.
    Wish I knew the answer.
    Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE
     
  12. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    * ATA Rulebook Changes August 2011

    3. Removed

    Section VIII, Standards for Trap houses, Targets, Target Setting, Guns and Ammunition

    Flights and Angles (Page 48, Third Paragraph, Last Sentence)

    Where terrain allows, a visible stake may be placed on the centerline of the trap on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is Point B (Point F, Diagram II)

    ----------------------


    E. FLIGHTS AND ANGLES

    Singles targets shall be thrown not less than 49 yards nor more than 51 yards. Distance measurements are on level ground in still air. Targets shall be between 8 feet and 10 feet high, when 10 yards from Point B. The recommended height is 9 or 9 1/2 feet. The height at a point 10 yards from Point B is to be understood to mean height above an imaginary horizontal straight line drawn through the post and Point B. (See Diagram II) (See also the alternative to setting by distance - setting by speed - in Section F, following.)

    Target height may also be set based on the height of the target at ten yards as measured above the level of the trap arm in the house rather than the height as measured from the number 3 shooting station. This is the recommended procedure at facilities where the installation of traps in the houses is inconsistent as to height.

    Point B is defined as the intersection of a line measured 1 foot 6 inches or 2 feet 6 inches from the outside vertical wall (farthest from the shooting stations) of the trap house and the centerline of the trap house. Please review Diagram I on page 55. Clubs constructing new trap house and fields should use the same point B measurement as their existing fields to keep all fields as consistent as possible.

    In Singles shooting the trap shall be so adjusted that within the normal distribution of angles as thrown by the trap, the right angle shall not be less than 17 degrees measured to the right of center (3BF), and not less than 17 degrees measured to the left of center (3BF), with a total angle between outside target limits of not less than 34 degrees. (See Diagram II)

    Under no circumstances shall a Standard Model 1524 trap be set in less than the #2 hole. Any other trap machine shall be adjusted so as to throw not less than equivalent angles.

    Where terrain allows, a visible stake must be placed on the centerline of the trap on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is Point B (Point F, Diagram II).

    To help in determining legal angles, stakes may be placed on the arc of a circle that has a radius of 50 yards and its center is Point B.

    One stake should be placed where a line drawn through Point A and Point B intersects this arc and another stake placed where a line drawn through Point C and Point B intersects the arc.

    These lines and stakes will assist in determining the required angles, but it is to be understood that the angle specifications apply when the target is from 15 yards to 20 yards from the trap rather than where the target strikes the ground. However, no target is to be declared illegal unless it is significantly outside normal parameters (e.g., more than 10 degrees outside normal).

    In doubles shooting, targets shall be thrown not less than 44 yards nor more than 46 yards. Distance measurements are on level ground in still air. Targets shall be between 8 feet and 10 feet high when 10 yards from point B.

    The recommended height is 9 or 9 1/2 feet. The height at a point 10 yards from Point B is to be understood to mean height above an imaginary horizontal straight line drawn through the post and Point B (See Diagram II).

    The trap shall be adjusted so the angle of target spread is not less than 34 degrees. (See the alternative to setting by distance - setting by speed - in Section F, following.)

    Target height may also be set based on the height of the target at ten yards as measured above the level of the trap arm in the house rather than the height as measured from the number 3 shooting station.

    The 17 degree angle will appear to be a straight-away from a point 3 1/2
    49 feet to the right of post 1; the 17 degree angle will appear to be a straight-away from a point 3 1/2 feet to the left of post 5.

    This 17 degree angle refers to the flight line of the target from the house to 15 or 20 yards out and can be used for singles, handicap, and doubles targets.

    F. Rules for the use of Radar adar Guns and Chronographs hronographs to set Target arget Speed

    There are two types of radar guns, high-power and low-power. The practical difference between them is that high-power guns work reliably from the 16-yard line and low-power guns don’t.

    High-power guns (Decatur, Stalker, most “police radar guns” and similar) are to be used at the 16-yard line. The trap oscillation is stopped, and the target measured is a straightaway. The gun is pointed horizontally.

    The correct speed for a singles or handicap target is a minimum of 42 MPH, maximum 43 MPH. The correct speed for the right target of a doubles pair must be a minimum of 39 MPH, maximum of 40 MPH.

    Low-power guns (SportRadar, Bushnell, and similar) are to be used at the back of the traphouse and at the level of the top of the traphouse. (Holding the gun higher than that will lead to a target which is too fast.) The trap oscillation is stopped, and the target measured is a straightaway. The gun is pointed horizontally.

    The correct speed for a singles or handicap target must be a minimum of 42 MPH, maximum of 43 MPH. The correct speed for the right target of a doubles pair must be a minimum of 39 MPH, maximum of 40 MPH.

    When a radar gun is used from inside the house, the correct speed for a singles or handicap target must be a minimum of 44 MPH, minimum of 45 MPH. The correct speed for the right target of a doubles pair must be a minimum of 41 MPH, maximum of 42 MPH.

    A chronograph is to be used as close to the trap as practical and tipped up at approximately the same angle as the flight of the target. The correct speed for a singles or handicap target is 67 ft/sec minimum, maximum of 69 ft/sec. To set doubles with a chronograph, set a singles target to 76 ft/sec minimum, maximum 78 ft/sec. and then switch the trap to throw doubles without changing the spring tension.

    Note: target speed may be set by distance as above or by speed as determined by a radar gun or chronograph. Target must be set by measured speed or distance.
     
  13. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Hap -

    Maybe you could help the less educated . . . how can we tell if the target speed/distance is set correctly using the 50 yard stake when the air is not still? I see targets landing 5 yards short of the stake, but with a 20 mph tail wind I'm not sure how to interpret that. The still air part I get, but the times I'm at a trapshoot with still air are few and far between. Knowning how to use the 50-yard stake when the wind is blowing would be very helpful.

    Also, if you could include the info on how to use the ones that are not on level ground that would be helpful too.

    Thanks - Scott
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "If you like your stakes keep using them..."

    Jay the problem seems to be that (many of) the host clubs interpret that rule to mean that if they use a radar gun they can not measure by distance. One little word in that segment of the rule "or" they pull the 50yd stake then the shooter has no way of telling the actual distance the target travels. Of course if the stake is no longer there no one can use it!!!!!

    "The "must", above, has been changed to "may".

    Can anyone guess why?"

    NO I can't guess why because in the on line rulebook it still says "must"

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    JR. you sure know how to get 'em going. LOL
     
  16. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure they will get that must changed to may by the end of 2012. They are working so hard getting those membership cards out, there is very little time for anything else. HMB
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    That is quite a bit of bait Jr is throwing out there, but I will jump in on one point I see here. Hap must be seeing a lot of extremely high targets in his area, but seriously, can you really throw a 16 foot high target out of a normal traphouse? I just thought most would be hitting the roof before they got that high?

    Also, "more face" is just a fancy term that simply means higher targets, nothing more. There is no magic to it, just a higher target.
     
  18. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    Do radar guns require calibration?
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I've had ten or so; no.

    Neil
     
  20. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Im one of those that believes that setting the correct height and using a radar gun correctly to set the distance is better than using a distance stake.


    Several years ago I did a study to determine if our state association should purchase radar guns. Part of that study is as follows:


    “Once the target height was set three targets were thrown which landed approximately 12-18 inches short of the 50-yard stake. While the distance was acceptable per the A.T.A. rules it wasn’t nominal. Prior to making an adjustment to optimize the distance a head wind began to blow so the adjustment was postponed until the wind subsided. After a 10-minute wait it was decided to continue with the evaluation in spite of the now constant head wind.”


    “Because of the head wind a tape measure was stretched from the 50-yard stake back towards the trap house anticipating the targets were going to impact short of the 50-yard stake. As each target was thrown both it’s velocity and impact point from the 50-yard stake was recorded. I recorded the impact point while my wife relayed the target’s velocity reading to me from the 16-yard line.”


    RESULTS


    “As the above data indicates the impact point for the 25 targets varied considerably while the target velocity was relatively constant. The impact point for the targets varied from .7 yards short to almost 3 yards short of the stake. Reviewing the impact point vs. the velocity of two highlighted data points dramatically shows the affect of wind on distance. One target was thrown at a velocity of 42.6 mph and landed 105 inches (2.9 Yards) short of the 50-yard stake while another was thrown at 42.5 mph and landed only 28 inches (.7 yards) short of the stake.”


    Jerry Hauser
     
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