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Where are most of the trophies won at Elysburg

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Travioli, Sep 20, 2008.

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  1. Travioli

    Travioli TS Member

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    I only have been shooting for about 4 years (ATA). This past Westy Hogans trip I was placed on banks 6 (singles) and 8 (handicap)( I was shooting by myself). I really don't mind but thought. I began to think if a lone shooter (myself) since my shooting partner couldn't make it; how come I couldn't get on banks 1-4. Which made me think...where are most of the trophies won at Elysburg? I was told that the best banks are 1-4. What are anyone elses thoughts on this? Has anyone looked at the list of winners and found out where they shot?


    Travis
     
  2. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    The Westy 16 yard winner shot the event on either bank 7 or 8
     
  3. dedpair

    dedpair Active Member

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    Travis, most of the trophies are won from banks 1-4, but it's mainly because all the better shooters presquad for there. I've shot every bank there and can honestly say they are all about the same! Granted 1-4 have the most consistent background, but I've broke 100's on every bank there at one point or another. Now I'm sure after i post this some will begin to bash the SuperStar Traps or claim the Trapsetters tweak their own banks, and I to had some issues with the SuperStars at the State Shoot. The PSSA officers are well aware of these complaints and are making every effort to correct those problems till next year.As for the setters "tweaking" their own banks, I can't believe Bruce, Donald, Glenn, Mike and the others would even think of that, besides they aren't allowed to set the bank their shooting on, unless I'm mistaken.

    Try presquading next year and I'll bet you get on some better banks there, it will be the best $2 you've ever spent.

    Jeff Graupp
     
  4. Travioli

    Travioli TS Member

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    Thanks for the info I just want to claify somehting in that I am not complaining how I have shot I was just curious on where most of the trophies are won. Jeff you explained things very well. I have shot acouple of times on banks 1 and 2 but I just noticed that most of the time I went there banks 1-4 was always full and was wondering if most people prefer those banks. The tem at Elysburg does a great job when hosting shoots.

    Travis
     
  5. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    From the banks on 6, you can see the lower trap field, which include people and vehicles moving around. On bank 7, the last trap house to the right near the hill will have jumpy targets in certain wind conditions (because of the hill). But that's only if those kind of things bother you.
     
  6. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Hey Jeff, If 5 and 6 are so good. Please move there and free up a good bank for someone else. Fat chance of any of the "good old boy" network not shooting banks 1-4.

    EE Bornman
     
  7. K80433SC

    K80433SC Member

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    After MANY years of suspicion, I finally got an employee of the PSSA to admit to me that there are those who are given preferential treatment, even with pre-squadding for the major tournaments at Elysburg. It is not a "first-come" basis, as the program would indicate.
    These individuals will (invariably) shoot their targets on banks 1-4, with most being even further broken down to either bank 2 or 3.
    For this reason, I wholeheartedly DISAGREE that your $2.00/post/event is money "well spent".
    In years past, there was some admission to this same fact - that preference was given to those who donated money to purchase trap machines. This was to have expired after a certain number of years. So -- basically, if you had money, you got the better banks to shoot. If you were the average working stiff, well.................you get the idea.
    To add injury to this insult, the preferential treatment was "extended", with the idea that those who donated in the past would be the same ones who would donate in the future, should the need to replace machines arise.
    It does not take a rocket scientist to see how this injustice is being proliferated. The former posting of "good old boys club" is more on-target than the blackest smokeball that any of them can muster against their solid tree backgrounds on the preferred banks.
    Any suggestions to level the playing field have been met with the staunchest resistance.....naturally. Those who are in the "club" are many of the same (or friends of) those who are getting the preferential treatment. Take a good look at your office personnel sometime, or who they tend to "pal around" with. Those very same individuals will NEVER be seen shooting a bank with a broken background, or shooting the championship doubles events with sun in their faces.
    It is indeed sad that such a large facility has so many varied shooting conditions. That cannot be helped or changed, and we all realize that no one is to blame for it. However -- until the shoot management relents on a rotating bank system (which has been proven successful at facilities across the nation), OR selects a date for public viewing of the pre-squadding selection -- there will always be a cloud of impropriety surrounding the otherwise excellently-run shoots at the PSSA homegrounds.
    I encourage (even dare) anyone "in the know" to challenge me on this issue.
     
  8. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I gave pre-squadding a try once - I had gotten better squads standing in line the first day in years past. But it must work for some people. I say that because one year, I went there on the Friday afternoon before the start of the state shoot at 3:00 and waited for the squadding windows to open at 6:00 p.m. to draw a full squad for the events my friends and I wanted to shoot over the course of the nine-day state shoot. I was the third person in line and they opened three windows, so basically there was no one ahead of me. I was told there were no available full squads in any event on banks one through four for the entire nine days of the shoot.

    Man, that's a lot of pre-squadding!

    Ed
     
  9. dedpair

    dedpair Active Member

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    You are all absolutely right about the ones who donated money are given preferential treatment, and why not? That wall next to the cashiers window represent the backbone of our sport, and allow PSSA to hold the best shoots in the country, through their contributions. Elysburg will never be the perfect background like you see at other clubs, but you here the same complaints at Cardinal, that if you're not on certain banks it can be a disadvantage.

    As for my squad, we have an ATA 1st Alternate Delegate, the PSSA Vice-President, a former PSSA Alternate Delegate and Secretary, I help run the daily shoot-offs, so is it that unfair we be afforded preferential squadding? I don't recall any of you volounteering your time as a target setter or squad hustler or shoot-off referee, or the 100 other things you can do to help out there! Much easier to complain, than be a part of the solution? And Butch if we're going to move to bank 5-6 as you suggested, than perhaps you should as well?

    And K80, I'd check to see where Chuck shoots and were Tom and Mike shoot all their targets, you'll be very suprised with the answer you get. And I still say that presquadding, is a good investment. Every event you see non "good old boys" up and down banks 1-4. As for rotating the banks. I think it's a good idea to level the playing field, but does anybody realise the amount of money that is taken in from pre-squadding? It allows them to make the grounds as nice as they are, and keeps the cost of targets at some of the lowest for shoots of that size.

    Jeff Graupp
     
  10. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Just some information, not a complaint. From Wikipedia "A volunteer is someone who works for a community or for the benefit of environment primarily because they choose to do so. The word comes from Latin, and can be translated as "will" (as in doing something out of ones own free will)." So unless the help receives no compensation, be it cash, check, or preferential squadding, they are not volunteers. I don't know very many "volunteers" at the PSSA. Most are receiving something for the work they do. I've been trying to get the banks rotated for at least fifteen years. Doubt that it will ever happen. Ever wonder why "many of Big Gun All Americans" don't come back after a visit or two to Elysbug.
     
  11. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Actually, that year I went up there early to pull squads, we shot on banks five, six, nine and ten. I shot the best singles score of my career on bank five (200) and came to like the lower banks better than those "preferred" ones up top. So after that, I never had a problem getting the banks we wanted.

    I've shot good scores and bad ones on banks one through four. I think it pretty much boils down to the shooter - if he's on, he will shoot well on any bank; if not, the "best" bank in the world won't help much.

    Ed
     
  12. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    I personally think that presquadding should be used to let people select their squadmates, squad number, and time frame in which to shoot, but not their bank number. Reserving banks for select shooters, and denying those banks to other shooters, is not right.

    Since Jeff has shot 100s from almost every bank at Elysburg, rotating the banks should not hurt the shooters who win from banks 1-4.

    And Jeff, I am not complaining. I realize that politics plays a part in every walk of life. It's just that the politics and the "in crowd" are so obvious in Pennsylvania that I sometimes wonder if it isn't hurting us in the long run.

    Can you honestly say that a newer shooter might not be your next big donor? Not if they are made to feel like an outsider in their own state...
     
  13. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Well put, Devi.

    I once suggested to a PSSA officer that they draw the bank numbers each morning like some other states do. Let's just say the suggestion was not well-received. He even went so far as to say that bank rotation is why he does not participate in those states' tournaments!

    Ed
     
  14. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Jeff, first will the PSSA accept help from OS for shootoffs and target setting?

    Why can't a draw_for_bank system be incorporated thus making system fair for all?
     
  15. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    I shot a Westy Hogans this year and of course was green a grass as usual. I had no idea you can pick where you want to shoot. I thought it all was the same like in Cicero or the Silver Dollar where the Banks are lottery. It wouldn't have mattered as I would not have known where to shoot anyway. The part that I didn't like was that I never shot on a full squad all weekend. 2 or 3 on a squad. I like shooting with a full squad gives me time to take a breath between shots. I'll see if I can find some people to squad with next year when I go. I really liked the PSSA Homgrounds nice place to shoot and I liked camping at that amusement park near by. It was fun.
     
  16. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Hook up with us widomaker, my Email is attached.



    Recurvy, Pheasantmaster, laura! & her husband and sons, the guys from LINY, etal. We have a great crew, which includes veterans of the game as well as most of us who've only been shooting for a couple of years.


    Most of us live in the PA and MD area and often set up squads so we can shoot together throughout the season. The next opportunity is this weekend (Fri-Sun) at Millington, MD for the Hall of Fame Shoot (1,100 targets). Some of us also shoot leagues together in the fall/winter.


    As for Elysburg,



    Elysburg is my favorite place to shoot, even with the reported issues. You may have signed up late for events wmaker, which caused you to end up on short squads. I've had no trouble myself finding full squads there. Opening yourself up to a willingness to take Post 1 should help with finding a slot on full squads.



    I've been able to get on banks 1-4, and all the others there for that matter. For me it doesn't seem to matter much where I shoot from, as my scores don't correlate to bank with any consistency good or bad. Perhaps if my skill level were more advanced it would make a difference--but I doubt it as the best shooters always seem to rise above any external impediment.


    I do strongly agree however that the system should not favor anyone. I like the bank lottery system. We all pay the same price for our targets and the privilege to use a facility.


    Those who choose to serve their club should receive special benefits, but not during events open to the general paying ATA public.


    Guy Babin
     
  17. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    Hey thanks alot. I appreciate that. As a matter of fact I did shoot on 1 doesn't really matter to me either as I miss them from every station no preferences. I did squad early and told them at squadding I can just fill holes like I usually do.

    The facility was great actually the best I've ever been to. I've only been to 3 though, The Silver Dollar and Cicero would ne the other 2. I'd love to squad with you guys but I don't think you know where I live, close to Watertown NY.

    Next stop is Canada so I'm sort of confined to Cicero Pssa Homgrounds or places close by or plane tickets need to be bought. I shot up on top for the singles all the way to the left traps and down on the bottom after 10am on bank 9 I think.

    Thanks again
     
  18. tj303

    tj303 Member

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    "You are all absolutely right about the ones who donated money are given preferential treatment, and why not?"... "As for my squad, we have an ATA 1st Alternate Delegate, the PSSA Vice-President, a former PSSA Alternate Delegate and Secretary, I help run the daily shoot-offs, so is it that unfair we be afforded preferential squadding?"
    Wow! Does this really make a shooter want to play this game?
     
  19. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    "Those who choose to serve their club should receive special benefits, but not during events open to the general paying ATA public."

    That was REALLY well put.

    Doesn't anyone there ever wonder why the PSSA is the second-largest shoot in the nation, and according to many people a WELL-RUN shoot, yet every year there is an absence of several All American shooters (and I mean ones that travel far and wide to shoots across the nation)? I have wondered about that a lot.

    And if we draw those kind of shooters one time, never to see them again, does anyone from our state notice that they don't return and wonder why?

    Let me admit that I am new, and maybe I don't know much about the logistics and reasoning behind decisions. But I could understand, and would welcome, any reasonable enlightenment.

    And there are many people out there that are asking the same questions as me (I've heard them), they are just too chicken to rock the boat.
     
  20. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Devi, although the things we discussed "off the air" certainly have bearing, so does the fact that a lot of Pennsylvania shooters do not play the money options or at least as many of them, so the earnings potential at our shoot for the large canines is less than at a lot of others. I spin that as meaning our shooters are smarter!

    I spent some time at our 2000 shoot speaking with Harlan Campbell Jr., Jacque Snellenberger and her father, George. The low payouts were mentioned more than once.

    Ed
     
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