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When you lengthen a forcing cone (Winston)

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Neil Winston, Jan 12, 2008.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I've compared the patterns of similar guns, one with a lengthened forcing cone, one stock and never seen a difference. The link above give an example.

    But comparing two guns isn't the ideal experimental design. To be fair, one should test a gun, have the forcing cone lengthened, then retest the gun.

    The gun pictured below is an 870, at least 30 years old. It was tested twice - a year apart - with the same lot number of 3-dram 7 1/2 Federal Papers, in low-80 degree weather at Metro Gun Club in Blaine, Minnesota. The distance was 40 yards.

    Here are the results. Each pair of lines represents the pattern percentage in one of three areas: The zero-to 20-inch circle, the 20 to 30-inch ring, and the whole 30-inch circle.

    [​IMG]

    Though none of the differences are statistically significant, one things clear. Lengthening the forcing cone didn't do this gun any good.

    Neil
     
  2. Ithaca$$$Grade

    Ithaca$$$Grade Active Member

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    How about felt recoil???? :>)

    That's why you lengthen a forcing cone.

    Spook will tell ya that.

    YOUKNOWWHO
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't tell about recoil. We tested the lengthened one vs a stock one and I thought - maybe - the long cone one might kick a little less, but the other tester thought the lengthened one kicked more. Certainly, once again, there was no significant difference so the best guess is that there is no difference.

    Neil
     
  4. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Interesting Neil. Looking at the graph, It looks like it actually hurt the 0-30 percentages, Not by much but there none the less. I'm sure it will have some folks thinking about their guns.


    Thanks
    Jim
     
  5. fearlessfain

    fearlessfain TS Member

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    another case of spending money to make the gun worth less. some always want to reinvent the wheel.
     
  6. nipper

    nipper TS Member

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    Thank you for all the work you put into these test results.

    Bill
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Upon reflection, I would hazard an opinion that hard shot will not get the effect of a reduced angle forcing cone, as compared to chilled shot.

    My subjective results without going to measuring, counting, etc seem to be that the pattern was more evenly distributed in all cases.

    I ream the cone on every 12 guage shotgun I get. (Have to justify having the reamer.)

    HM
     
  8. jakearoo

    jakearoo Active Member

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    Neil, Yo da man. I appreciate your work. What do you think about porting and the belief that it reduces recoil? I have always felt that was more myth than reality. One thing for sure, barrel work makes the barrel/gun worth less. Jake
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Jim, there are - on the average - six or seven pellets fewer in both the zero to 20-inch ring and the whole pattern with the lengthened cone. But statistically speaking, the difference is not great enough to reject the hypothesis that there is no difference in the performance of this gun after the forcing cone was lengthened. At least there's no evidence that "pellets were brought in from the periphery" and that sort thing we hear all the time.

    Neil
     
  10. nipper

    nipper TS Member

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    I think i will keep the 120.00 i was going to spend and buy some powder

    bill
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Halfmile, I don't want to pick on you, but you have posted an example of what I've called the maximum irritation of TS.com, a tactic I've named "going somewhere else."

    In this case it goes like this. I've posted two tests before this, both showing no effect. But that wasn't enough, since the only test is the pre- and post-patterning cited here they told me. So I did the test they wanted.

    But now you tell me it didn't work because I used hard shot. No one ever said I had to use soft shot to get the effect. That's "going somewhere else": Looking at a clear set of data and saying "Well, that wouldn't have happened if you had done it differently." You see, there's no end to that. The thing to remember is that in this case, with this equipment, it _did_ happen. This is the baseline. If you think something will affect that baseline, it's up to you to prove it. So far, lengthening forcing cones has no affect on patterns. Soft shot my act differently, but it's just a guess - this result is no guess.

    And now we also hear the effect shows up not in pellets, which can be counted, but "evenness" which can never be nailed down and which no one can tell anything about anyway. And besides, for trap you don't _want_ evenness you want a hot center which is what you are going to get anyway.

    As I said, halfmile, this post is not directed at you personally, but rather at a type of argument here that you were just the first - and won't be the last - to use. We'll see plenty more before this thread dies out; I just wanted to launch an early counter-action before I'm buried in more of the same.

    Neil
     
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  12. nipper

    nipper TS Member

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    With the link you posted from 2006 looks like the same result with another gun.

    Bill
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Where has that been "proven", Charlie?

    And how does that recoil reduction work, anyway? If you block the bore entirely, the gun wouldn't recoil at all.

    Neil
     
  14. Smiley

    Smiley Member

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    On the above note in my 20 something years of trapshooting I have seen a lot of variations to improve a shotguns performance as well as "the nut behind the butt" performance .One thing I have noticed is that different shotshells seem to result in the pattern changing,I admit that I have not patterned these shells but only view them from the way they break targets.It would seem that the ballistics of a shotgun performs in similar mysterious ways like a rifle therefore my reasoning is if you find a shotshell that performs well in your gun then stick to it,forget about price and brand as confidence is a very intergral part of your ability to be a winner.
    Paul
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    nipper, I hadn't looked carefully at that earlier result, but you are right. In the recent case I combined the zero-to- ten and ten-to-twenty areas, but if you look at the pattern totals and the twenty-to-thirty inch areas, they are practically the same aren't they?

    And this is the general finding of my last three year's work. Guns shoot much more the same than is generally claimed. How many times have you heard "Every gun is a law unto itself (coined by Stan Baker, it is said.) And don't you begin to wonder how I came up with four which are _not_ laws unto themselves?

    Someone here recently asked if he should pattern his new gun. I advised him not to bother; if it's a full choke it will shoot about like this. That's what they do.

    Neil
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gregg, I do that whenever I have new pattern data. It says to a certain sub-set of readers here "Look!"

    Neil
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I have read Bob Brister's book, Charlie, and remember that when he took the shot out of trap loads and loaded them in his shells, he saw _no_ evidence of shot stringing. It's a little hard to find, since it's connected with a picture and not in the text, but it's there.

    Neil
     
  18. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Sportshot are you new to this forum?????? You sound like it.






    Jim
     
  19. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    Lengthened forcing cones do the same for recoil that they do for patterns: not much.

    Recoil depends on several things: weight of ejecta, velocity of ejecta, and weight of gun. Notice that forcing cone length is not included in that group.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I remember that too, Charlie. And that he wrote, after having his wife drive by and shooting trap shot, was (as closely as I can quote it) "The moving and static targets were indistinguishable."

    Most of his work was done with duck loads, and there hard shot helped a lot, and so did buffering. But he never tested forcing cones, as I remember. So I don't see how his work relates to mine.

    In general, of course, you are right, This gun, either before or after, will break every target if it is pointed right. The point is, that "doing" the forcing cone will not help it break any _more_ targets.

    Neil
     
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