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When was this rule changed?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Sep 1, 2010.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    This should be answered by shooters from the 1960s-70s.

    In the rule book at that time did it not specify 3 Dram 1200 fps shells?

    Section Xlll G. goes into speeds as allowed now.

    But my memory serves me as 1200fps 3 Dram loads were the max.

    And upon looking at the Winchester Reloading Manual it specifically states that 3 dram 1 1/8th oz equiv is 1200 fps.

    And in the Winchester reloading manual says higher velocities extend the target breaking capabilities.

    3 1/4 dram 1 1/8th oz equiv is 1255 Fps. and this is listed as industry standards.

    I want to know what year was this changed and by what EC Committee and members allowed it to be changed.

    Only members respond that were members in the 60s and 70s and Neil Winston this leaves you out of the picture unless you were involved in the change.

    Nothing is mentioned in either article that relates to SAAMI.

    I am trying to narrow down the time change, if anyone has some old rule books lying around please look up allowable ammunition then.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I have told you this I don't know how many times, Gerry. I even posted scans from the 1969's rulebook.

    So I'll say it again, hoping that this time it might "take."

    The rulebook never, in any copy I have found going back 50 years, said 1200 FPS. Never. That means not once. It didn't say 1200 fps. Do you understand that. I repeat, as I have so many times before, never. Got it?

    What the rulebook said was 3-dram until Tom Acklin changed it to speed against my advice. The speeds have not changes since they were introduced, except that loghter than 3/4 oz was included with 3.4 ounce.

    Pat and I have been through the 3-dram thing for you an equal number of times, but that doesn't seem to be your question this time.

    Neil
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- I suggest that you copy and save your post. That might make it easier when Gary asks the same question again.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Neil i interjected the 1200fps from the Winchester Reloading Manual.

    My question was when was the speed introduced into the rule book.

    But Neil you were not a member in the 1960s or 70s. I ask you to refrain from answering this post, only want old time members to post.

    If it was Tom Acklin times that makes it the approx 2000 year time.

    I know what you have posted before, I know what Pat Ireland posted also.

    You don't need to go over this anymore, just back off the post.

    I am looking for a specific answer WHEN and by WHAT EC approved it.

    Winchester Knows how to Mfgr Shells and to what standard and I trust what they write in their reloading manuals.

    This is specifically for my information, I wish I had an official copy of the old rule book from the 1960s.

    Does any one have a copy?


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  5. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Doc Longshorts, Please free Neil. Is that old enough for you? I don't know why I looked at your post.
     
  6. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    ATA said 3 dram. ammo mfgs said 3 dram equiv was 1200 fps, then ATA allowed in excess of 3 dram to allow for variations in mfg's ability to load shells that were exactly 3 dram. When ammo mfgrs tightened up their specs they came out with the rhino rollers that would still meet the ata limitations that were made to accomodate the ammo people and be as close to the max as possible, realizing that there would not much of any way to check velocity of these loads at a ahoot. You go figure, people say ammo mfgrs don't listen to us but they musta been listening to somebody since they came up with the super h-c loads.

    Thats the most of what i can see of what the change was. ATA didn't change until they went to fps and made an allowance (percentage)in numbers of fps and the ammo people did all that they could to reach the max fps availabl.

    Gary I hope this draws a picture of what happened for you.

    Bob
     
  7. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    TEXASZEPHYR: That sounds like the most reasonable explanation, I am wondering what year was it written into the rule book?

    Winchester reloading guide says adding more velocity adds to effective range.
    Was it made to break targets farther away, such as longer yardages?

    You can buy shells marked MAX DRAM EQUIV what does that mean? I don't see any rule that applies to this shell or speed. Such as ESTATES ?

    SAAMI is an organization that was created after the ATA came into existince I have the year it was formed but not handy right now.

    The original rule of 3 dram was enough it was our standard.Every reloading book still states 3 dram equiv is 1200 fps in 1 1/8th oz.

    So why do Mfgrs now print the speed of their shells on the box 1235 and 1250fps?

    To me MAX DRAM HDCP are cheating shells that no guidelines exist for them.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  8. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    He's consistent if nothing else!
     
  9. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Gary, How can a Max-Dram Eq. shell be illeagal if it is allowed by the ATA. The 3 dram Eq. may have been abit to vague for some clubs or shooters in the past, but it is well documented on what is legal now. Why worry about the past!!! You can't change it we can only worry about today and tomorrow. Break-em all. Jeff
     
  10. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Gary,

    When you go to a ATA registered shoot who is there enforcing the ammo velocity rules? HMB
     
  11. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    When the first silver AA handicap shells came out there was a lot of yapping about them being illegal. The explanation I got was that there was an allowable 5 per cent leeway, so the manufacturers just went to the top of that window.

    That's my story and i'm sticking to it.

    HM
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, one need not have been in the Great War to read about it. Nor need I have been a member in the 60's to read a rulebook from that era. 1200 feet per second is not in a 1960's rulebook. Nor 70's, 80's, 90's, 04 2000+. It's never been there.

    So it has not been changed, except by Tom. So the EC didn't do it. The members didn't do it. No one did it. It never happened.

    Why don't you get this?

    I'm at Stockdales, (What?! A TS.com poster who goes to traphsoots? What's this!?) and my connection is so slow I'll probably never get to post that scan of a 1960's rulebook, the one that says 3-dram, period, no speed, just like all the others. Why don't you just take my word for it?

    Neil
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Halfmile, while I have no doubt that's what you were told, there's not a syllable of truth in it. Did Gary tell you?

    Neil
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The problem is that all, or most of us, grew up believing that 3 dram equivalent meant 1200 ft/sec. That was the dogma everyone, except the shell manufacturers, accepted. It is difficult to admit that some of our old standard beliefs were incorrect. I even had to accept the once well known fact that you could accurately measure the choke on a shotgun with a dime was not correct. That caused much controversy in 1965.

    Pat Ireland
    PS- I was shooting registered trap in the 1960's
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary- I remember Tom A. adding velocity numbers to the rule book around 2002-2004.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Thanks Pat that was the answer I was looking to find out.

    I knew what Neil had posted previously but he did not comprehend what I was wanting to know.

    Like I said I interjected the 1200 fps on the 3 dram rule. In the 60s and 70s as you know we could buy 2 3/4 dram and 3 Dram shells and the accepted speed of 1145 and 1200 fps and Mfgrs loaded them to these specs or close to them. In 1 1/8th oz that was all we could buy for legal trap.

    But then something happened when Winchester Introduced the SILVER BULLET w/ the
    ++ Plusses on them at the Southern Grand and they were actually chronographed at 1320 fps and they bumped like hell and I used them for shootoffs in buddy shoots, Then came along the Remington Nitro-27, and Federal Handicap shells to compete.

    Winchester sales got better and were as previously the best selling shell at the Grand for years. Now Remington took the lead after Winchester redesigned their hull and their sales have went south since.

    Why Shoot w/ Silver when You can Shoot w/Gold as the slogans went.

    Every Reloading Manual you pick up still states 3 dram=1200fps
    and 3 1/4 dram =1255 in 1 1/8thoz and 3 1/2 dram=1300fps in 1 1/8th oz
    those are facts. I don't care about SAAMI +90fps or -90 fps these are specs from SAAMI.

    I would honestly like to see us go back to the 3 dram rule that was in effect in the early days. We did not need any changes.

    I cannot get the rule changed, if I could I would.

    I just wanted to know what year it was put in the rule book.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  17. perazzi03

    perazzi03 TS Member

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    we are in the 21 century, forget about what happen in the 60s and 70s
     
  18. shelly

    shelly TS Member

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    Too bad the other shotgun shooting sports don't add a velocity rule like the ATA so they could enjoy these kind of stimulating discussions.
     
  19. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Gary Longshot,


    Don't spend your time trying to get Neil to understand your question...he used to be on the EC.



    Sheesh, I tell ya...some people just can't understand plain English, can they?
     
  20. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Gary, the one thing I remember most from a teaching class, Univ of CA Extension, Berkeley, was that "if they (students) don't understand what you said or asked, it is your failure to communicate." Your original question(s) does/do seem a bit convoluted.......Bob Dodd
     
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