1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

What's The Rule?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by hunter44, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,369
    A shooter who shoots a release has a gun breakdown during a round, borrows a gun which has a pull trigger. "Forgets" a few times & "sets" the trigger which of course fires the gun before the bird is called for. Since there is no bird in the air is that a failure to fire???
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Messages:
    17,202
    Location:
    IL(The gun friendly Southern Part)
    No bird, no FTF.
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,390
    No
     
  4. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,371
    No call, no FTF ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  5. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,542
    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    failure to fire requires a legal bird to have been released (intentionally or not) and not fired upon.
     
  6. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,286
    BigM, so a shooter bumps the mike stand with his barrel, releasing a bird, (not intentional, and not fired on) is a failure to fire? Or am I missing sommething?

    GneJ
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Hippy, a hog caller releases your bird when it's your turn to shoot. If you shoot at it, the result is scored. If you make an attempt to shoot and the gun doesn't go off on that wild bird, depends on if the scorekeeper calls "no bird" prior. If he didn't make that call prior, it's a FTF. No call, broken target, a bumped mic trip with no shot is a no target situation.

    HAP
     
  8. Shawn

    Shawn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    530
    Hunter44

    It is just an "OOPS" and you carry on. No FTF etc.

    Hippie

    It is just an "OOPS" and you carry on. No FTF etc.


    Shawn
     
  9. RWT

    RWT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,553
    HAP,

    I think that the only time a scorekeeper can call "no target" is if the target comes out broken, not on fast or slow or inadvertently released targets.
     
  10. Shawn

    Shawn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    530
    Fast or slow or inadvertently released targets are all ruled No Target if you don't fire.

    Shawn

    E. NO TARGET

    6. When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant, provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored.
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Robert, you may be correct in the way that rule is written. The main reason a good scorekeeper SHOULD have the ability to make this call? A quick released target is a possible loss for a release trigger shooter's gun discharging as he lowers his gun while the clay is still in the air?? He obviously didn't intend a shot at such a target and shouldn't be penalized for an inadvertent discharge? If I'm scoring or refereeing, I'll call that a "NO-BIRD" and not punish the shooter because of the hog callers volume and timing. Besides, it's more fair to the shooter seems to me?

    HAP
     
  12. gundog

    gundog TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    136
    Am i the only one that sees a different problem here?
     
  13. Shawn

    Shawn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    530
    The Fast or slow or inadvertently released target is "No Target"

    E. NO TARGET

    6. When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant, provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored.


    If the scorer calls no target and the shooter fires the results must be scored.

    It doesn't matter if he fires by accident.

    If there is a target in the air the results must be scored.

    Shawn
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Shawn, what if the scorekeeper calls "NO TARGET" on a broken target and the shooter shoots. That target is still a no target.
    I shot on a squad at the WV state shoot and one guy called a broken target on another shooter that was lighting them up with smoke. The piece he saw was in fact a dark colored butterfly that flew about 4 foot to the traps side! Rather than argue the point, the shooter said he'd shoot another, he smoked it also.

    If shooters have such say in making these kinds of decisions, which they do, then why punish the shooter for a mistake such as an accidental shot from a release while lowering the gun on a fast pull?? Makes no sence to me that we can't use common sence while enforcing guidelines for fairness of play??

    HAP
     
  15. Shawn

    Shawn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    530
    Hap
    If you fire at a no target the results must me scored. Thats the rule.
    In that situation I would take the loss.

    NOTE I am not saying everyone knows the rules or plays by them.

    In your WV example. The shooter doesn't get to decide to take a mulligan. It was up to the score keeper to decide if he hit or missed the target. There was nothing there that would allow for a re shoot. The squad can offer an opinion but the score keeper is the last word.


    Again I am not saying everyone knows the rules or plays by them.


    If there are rule we don't agree with we can try and get our delagates to propose a change.

    But we both know what it means to ignore a rule because we don't agree with it. (That is how we got the 2 hole target)

    Clubs broke the rule so often the rule was changed.

    Have a great day.
     
  16. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,413
    Location:
    Chicago area
    To clarify what Hap said (what is the scorekeeper calls No Target on a broker target) . . . doesn't matter what the scorekeeper calls on a broken target. A broken target must be reshot, and what the shooter did to the broken target doesn't matter. Now, if the shooter shoots at the target and after the shot the decision is that it was not broken (i.e. someone saw a butterfly) then the results count.

    I think the question is along the lines of what happens if the scorekeeper calls out "No Target" when an illegal target comes out of the house but the shooter still shoots. As Shawn points out, per the rules it doesn't matter what the scorekeeper says, if the shooter shoots at a whole target it must be scored.

    I was in San Antonio at the SWG one year, back when they still had handsets. Shooting doubles, and the first target was a flipper (came out tumbling end-over-end). Scorekeeper called out "no target" but I shot at it and missed, and the result was scored (scorekeeper insisted that since he called "no target" I could re-shoot, but that's not the rule).

    Scott
     
  17. RWT

    RWT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,553
    Shawn, Scott,

    Absoluty right, if you shoot while the target is in the air, it't yours, unless it is a broken target out of the house.

    Shawn I agree with you about ignoring the rules, when people do that you end up in the position we are in now ATA--USA.
     
  18. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,390
    I think Scott sums it up well.

    Some of the confusion in this thread, and in what we hear around the club is statements along the lines of - if you shoot at a "no target" the result must be scored. That is not true, and it is not in the rulebook. "No target" involves many different situations, and yes, most of them require the target gets scored if the shooter fires, but not all of them, and more than just broken targets.

    A scorer's call of "no target" doesn't override the rules when the shooter actually fires and the rules call for the target to be scored in that situation.

    I also understand Hap's point about an obviously unintentional discharge such as when the gun is pointed straight up in the air while taking it down. In my experience most trapshooters seem to be more interested in taking targets away from another even when it is obvious there was no benefit gained. It is ultimately the scorers decision, most often just "lost". I will toss out there that the rules use "does not fire at it" in some places and just "does not fire" in others. The inconsistency might give a scorer a little bit of leeway in an infrequent situation where the shooter obviously didn't fire "at" the target like Hap mentioned.
     
  19. pitt4570

    pitt4570 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    392
    sounds more like an accidental discharge and requires toilet paper
     
  20. shotgunpeople

    shotgunpeople Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,787
    The shooter NEVER called for the target. The target was NOT in the air when the accidental discharge went off...

    No FTF in my book...

    Just as PITT4570 said ! Accidental discharge, nothing more, nothing less...

    When you read Hunter44's question, it has nothing to do with slow or fast pulls, or out of bound targets...He is asking the question on an accidental discharge.