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What's the purpose of an ATA yardage if.....

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by GoldEx, May 3, 2010.

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  1. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    What

    if you have to shoot penalty yardage? Why do some major shoots look at this target year and the last two and some just this year and last year? Why no common practice here per the ATA? Why left up to individual states? Up north here in MI, our season really just gets going around now with our first major shoot of the year. I'll start shooting in the cold again when they do in Florida. Was only able to shoot 500 caps last year for financial reasons but 1500 the year before but none so far this year. Was classified penaly 25.5. End result.... no handicap shot at that shoot. Who really lost there? Why would someone pay the same amount as non penalized shooters to shoot from their assigned ATA yardage and not be eligible for any trophies? I feel I have an ATA average for a reason. If they think I should be shooting from the 25 then my average card should reflect that.

    Jeff
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jeff, there is no "common practice" throughout the ATA because some clubs want to do things one way, others another way, based on the local circumstances and the assumption that they know what they are doing.

    I doubt there is anyone in Vandalia who would claim to know more about shoot X than the people who run shoot X.

    Same goes for almost everything about individual shoots except for the rules of shooting.

    Neil
     
  3. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    Neil -

    Thanks for the reply. The question I was really asking was why does the ATA leave this type of things up to people who, as you put it,work under "the assumption they know what they are doing"? Why are there not standard ATA guidelings for all major shoots regardless of state or province? Why do I have a yardage if I can't shoot from it? The thing that gets me is that without them saying it, I am being told I am somehow attempting to put something over on them so to make sure that I don't, they are penalizing me in case I get any crazy ideas. When faced with the decision to get two other people in my home into the sport or continue shooting the same amount I have in the past, the decision was easy. It should not however come at a added cost to my shooting. Asking me to shoot from a distance that I have obviously shown I would not be competitive at is insulting. I have never been past the 24 yard line. I have never won any 25 or 50 straight purses I was foolish enough to play, I have run a 50 straight in handicap exactly 3 times in 10 years, I have never won a handicap event, I have never run 100 straight in singles and am being treated like my hand is in their back pocket for some reason. ATA # is 9910137. For the past 10 years I have averaged 1100 singles and 1000 handicap targets annually. This information is not priviledged and is available to anyone who wants to take the time to look at it. Obviously they don't.

    Jeff
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jess, I tried to change the penalty yardage at the Grand and couldn't do it. Not enough votes.* That was 55 people, all in one room, all with a very good understanding of the Grand American, dealing with one single event. Make that several hundred events, all over the country each with different customers, different traditions, and different problems and try get the BOD to write one rule which will work for them all. Good luck. I don't get to vote anymore, but I, for one, would vote against it.

    The BOD has to protect the assets of the ATA, including its reputation and good will. No matter what "blanket rule" they came up with, it would fail somewhere, and - in retrospect - in some entirely predictable way. It then becomes "the ATA's fault." It wouldn't be, of course, but that's what people would think. The "fault" would be a mismatch between the blanket rule and the needs of that particular shoot. If it's going to fail, and now and then it will, it should be known as a local failure, because that's what it is, not an ATA failure.

    Neil

    * I did get the two-year stuff discarded and the classes fixed a bit, though; you take what you can get.
     
  5. 1ounceload

    1ounceload TS Member

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    i thank i know where you are coming from Goldex. you can shoot one good score and you will be handicapped. Really you don't have to shoot it, just let someone says (without proof) on known ability, you can get yardage. But you have to shoot a lifetime or at least several dollars in targets to maybe get a yard off. It's like the goat pulling the wagon with the carrot on a string in front of him, just close enough. Keep the goat pulling that is all that matters, put he will never get the bait. It's always out of reach, keep them thinking maybe the next time. But each next time always cost you. If you ask for yardage because you shoot bad, one said, "it was winter, the wind blew, to many cloths, so we can't really depend upon these low score you have turned in." I bet if you shoot a good score in bad weather they wouldn't say, "We can't give you yardage, it was too cold, wind blowing etc." If you shoot at your local club and shoot poorly, they say you're sandbagging. But if you go to a big shoot and shoot your heart out and shoot poorly, you hear, "donated again?" Seems like the goat would wise up (that goat is me).
     
  6. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Jeff, you really need to understand "penalty yardage". Many years ago it was effective at promoting more shooting by forcing shooters to participate at the smaller shoots to get in their requirements. At that time it was likely short yardage shooters would win shoots or at least bring home a pocketful of dollars.

    Today, the system makes it a no-no to dip into the pockets of the severely under-handicapped perenial All-Americans-many of whom haven't seen a yardage reduction in over 30 years. Every rule the ATA has conjured up to deal with the notorious sandbaggers has bitten "Joe Average Shooter" in the behind. Until something is done to make the game more difficult for the shooters who've made the Handicap event a farce, our once fine game will drift into obscurity.

    For those reasons-I agree-penalty yardage should be abolished!!
     
  7. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I see both sides. If penalty yardage is abolished, you will have people who are pretty fair handicap shooters only showing up for big shoots, shooting at short yardage and taking the money home with them. But penalizing new shooters is not conducive to keeping those shooters in the fold. If a guy joins the ATA at his state shoot or other tournament, he will immediately be forced to shoot at longer yardage than he will be able to handle for some time to come. A couple of scores like that and he'll likely find something else to do.

    Today, many of those shooters just lack the free time to spend several days at local clubs meeting their target minimums. And if they do venture out to a local club for registered targets, because the only reason they are there is to put targets on their record makes it the infamous "expensive registered practice" which gets old fast, too.

    Once again, I suggest that taking the money out of trapshooting, especially handicap, will solve the problem.

    Ed
     
  8. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Ed, I see you haven't paid much attention to ATA Handicap shooting. The money has mostly already gone and so have the shooters. If you prefer to go out to the back pasture and practice with a hand thrower go for it. I doubt the rest of the ATA feels as you do.

    I also don't believe you've seen the totals from the Krieghoff Handicap event at the PA State shoot. It should be pretty obvious that if there's something worth shooting for they'll be there!!
     
  9. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying people shouldn't shoot competitively. I think anyone who plays the money and whose last name doesn't end in All-American is kidding themselves. I can think of about a dozen Americans who can earn a living shooting trap. Guess who the money they win comes from. I never was much of a money-player even when I was shooting well.

    I think it's great that people like Deiter Kreighoff put up nice prices worth shooting for like that. But the constant talk of money in trapshooting really turns me off. Most of the sport's "average" shooters prefer to shoot for fun - at least, that's what my reader mail tells me. Shooting for that K-80 would really be fun, especially because it isn't an extra-cost option.

    But you're right - I haven't been paying attention to any registered shooting since 2006.

    Ed
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    There you go again Ed, you actually admitted that many shooters constantly talk about shooting for money. I've got news for you, it's been that way since I started back in 1972.

    I also think that many shooters believe "shooting for fun" means winning enough to pay for next weeks shooting fees!!
     
  11. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    The only trouble is that when they talk about winning money, it's because they aren't winning any! But they play the options only to complain about what they didn't win because of what you said - it's been part of the sport for years.

    If everyone wanted to win enough to pay for next week's entry fees, everyone would play the money.

    Hey, we all shoot for different reasons and all those reasons are good as long as the people shoot.

    Ed
     
  12. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    dawg,

    Many (if not most) of the new crop of shooters are not talking about shooting for the money. We learn real quick it is a suckers bet unless your are at the point you are rapidly rising in class or yardage. After 4-6 years, most of us reach our level of incompetence and playing the options is stupid. We stay over handicapped and continue shooting our mid 80's in HC while refusing reductions and the embarrassment of same.

    Only the top 5% or so have a chance of beating the odds.

    At least that is what I see in Michigan.

    Don Verna
     
  13. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    1ounceload, another goat here. You said: "Really you don't have to shoot it, just let someone says (without proof) on known ability, you can get yardage." Hell even third parties who have no knowledge of your ability get involved and have codes applied. I quit shooting ATA, not just handicap. After all I shot trap long before I shot registered. I saved so much money last year I bought another gun. JRM
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Not that it matters but why is it that every shooter that goes to their state shoot every year manage to get their target requirements with complaining about the minimums.

    The maybe 5% that don't every year are the only ones that complain about the target requirements are the one that for what ever reason don't get their required targets. When they weren't having any trouble making the required target. No complaint go figure!!!!!!

    If you can't make the required targets its your problem not the ATA or the State Association's problem it is yours. BTW if you didn't shoot last year for the same reason then it would appear you have figured an answer to the problem. So why the complaining now????

    All it is, is a rule that makes it the same for everyone!!!!!!!!!! Why would we want that to happen???????

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    I got more news for you Don, 95% of todays' shooter haven't a chance in hell of getting a consistent return on their investment. Most have become smart enough to quit playing options but a significant part of the game is disappearing.

    Personally, I don't believe sitting around the motor home and drinking beer all night while preparing oneself for a stab at tomorrows belt buckle or plastic duck was the way the old timers viewed the sport!!
     
  16. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    If you are shooting at "your" proper level then you should be able to compete in your group. If you are over handicaped don't bitch and expect the ATA to bring down the group you are shooting in to your level of competence. Or that it is unfair. If you choose not to take reductions then that is your choice, your choice on what options to play if any, your choice and no one else's business as long as you and not them are paying for your shooting.

    The problem is, and over-handicaping is not it, most shooters can't shoot good scores regardless of the yardage and those are the ones complaining about not being able to "make money". They have been on the 20/21 for years and don't even play the money but still complain but brag when they make $10 in the lewis.

    The target requirement is what qualifies you to get into the event at your true level. It is no difference than other sports where you have to qualify to get into the event. It guarantees those who have qualified that they will be shooting against those who qualified or have been penalized to their group. Why don't we just play grab ass and let anyone declare there class and shoot for the event or class championship, let's make it mean something other than just another good ole boys back yard trapshoot.

    Just another opinion from the other side.

    Don
     
  17. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    dawg,

    I suspect 95% of the old timers couldn't get a consistent return on their investment either - back in the good old days.

    Now it is easier to say "targets only" because more and more people are doing so, and there is less stigma attached to it.

    BigDon,
    We both shoot enough that making the minimum target level is not a problem. We are lucky. Some guys cannot afford the time or money. Assigning Penalty Yardage to a guy who has been short yardage for years does not make a lot of sense if we want him to shoot. What is his incentive? I think Jeff has a point.

    If he posts a good score, kicks your ass, and wins the plastic deer with the clock (I have one of those GD trophies?) good for him. He gets his punch and all is good.

    The real sandbaggers are shooting more than 500 targets a year anyway.

    Don Verna
     
  18. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    I am just one of those that "shoot for fun". I don't play the options or Lewis because to be honest to me that is NOT what Trapshooting is or should be about. I have always made my minimums even if I shot some of those birds at 10 degrees and snowing. And if something should happen that I had to shoot at penalty yardage so what. What would it change I would still have to do my best on all 100 birds just like every other shooter on the line. I believe Daro Handy said it's only a place to stand anyway.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  19. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Don, I was there in the 70's when a decent score or the occasional 25 straight was enough to pay for next weeks events. Of course, anyone breaking a score in the 90's from the fence received a slap on the back for a job well done. I'll never forget the $81 I received for breaking the only 25 in a Handicap event. Enough then for two more Handicap entries the following week.

    Compare that to today!!
     
  20. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Dawg: I saw alot of decent lewis payouts this week end, as you know skill and luck involved. Skill paid a shooter $400 for a 199, luck paid another over $100 for a lesser score. You know if you can shoot in the 90's you stand to make a $1 or 2. It is surprising how many shooters don't play their yardage or class purse and you don't have run a 100 to win some cash.

    Take care.

    Don
     
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