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Whats most interesting is Phil Kiners letter

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Jan 8, 2012.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    What I find most interesting is Phil Kiner's letter he sent to Neil Winston
    when he was President, and just what exactly was Neil Winston's action, what I am saying did Neil Winston bring it up to the BOD and EC or did he just throw it in the wastebasket.

    I never heard anything brought up about it, was it in the minutes of the ATA meeting reports?

    Was it discussed by the BOD and EC?

    I think ideas and suggestions like this deserve merit.

    If someone has and idea should he post it on here so we members that read this site know first hand what is being suggested and being done by the BOD and EC.

    Shooters on here have great ideas and money saving ideas and money creating ideas for the ATA.

    One of my points that I brought up in my Resume for the Directors position was.

    ANY PROPOSED CHANGES BY THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE OR BOD MUST BE SENT AND POSTED IN ALL GUN CLUBS FOR REVIEW BY THE MEMBERS FOR AT LEAST 90 DAYS.

    Best In Sport.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.Longshot
    Life Member
     
  2. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    If it were a letter to Neil from Phil it could be considered a private communication and Neil would be under no obligation to do anything with it, including read it.

    If someone wants to make a suggestion to the BO)D or the EC, he could communicate that idea through his delegate. If the delegate does not take it forward, it would be appropriate for the person to seek a public forum such as Trapshooters.com to make his suggestion widely known in an effort to generate support for it. However, some of the suggestions I have seen here have been impossible to comprehend and appear to have been written in a language know only to the author. Perhaps that is why they get no traction not because no one is interested!
     
  3. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I think Phil Kiner is a Delegate which makes it something that should of been addressed by the EC or at least considered for discussion ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  4. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    It should be apparent, by now, that the EC is an entity onto itself, that neither needs, nor seeks, outside influence. The EC, alone, shall decide what is best for us, and the sport.
     
  5. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    "Best In Sport"

    Are you serious??? I must have missed something.
     
  6. scooterbum

    scooterbum Active Member

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    It should be apparent, by now, that the EC is an entity onto itself, that neither needs, nor seeks, outside influence. The EC, alone, shall decide what is best for us, and the sport.
     
  7. darwinbene

    darwinbene Member

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    All the discussion is really good, in my opinion. It gets some/all of the readers off the middle of the fence. I would hope that it would get more people to talk with their delegates and get those ideas aired.

    I do like the Kiner concept of change. If it aint working change and see what will happen, it can always go back to the original format. But, something has to change. I for one will take the reduction when it come available and if that means I can't shoot with my buddies so be it. I don't think I am that insecure that I can't shoot with strangers. It helps me meet people and I love the sport/to shoot. At this point what is there to lose?

    Darwin
     
  8. running bear

    running bear Member

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    Gary, What are you a Doctor Of? You keep signing your name Dr. Longshot?

    Buck
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    And why the disgruntled preoccupation with Mr. Winston? As i'm sure your aware, he is no longer an EC member...
     
  10. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    At the time of Phil's letter he was not the Delegate of Wyoming. In earlier years he was and now he has returned this year. Phil has a lot of ideas and direction that have merit. In his letter I also agree the money is probably gone for ever which is sad but reality.

    It is important that we plan for the future and remember our failures in the past so we don't repeat history. There are absolutely other ways to do things and in today's business you get on board and move forward or you won't make it. I along with Phil and others have said the days of talking about change for five, ten, fifteen years are gone. The status quo decision is not the way to survive. Actions speak louder than words and talk is cheap and gets us know where.

    I will give an example for all to think and discuss further:

    During our recent state meeting there was discussion regarding the State Association becoming a non profit organization. One of the comments from the opposing parties was we have been doing it this way for over ninety years so why do we need to change.

    Well my response was simple, declining membership and participation at shoots to start with. I personally am not proud of that and know we need to move up and not continue to decline. We need to think outside of the box and plan for the future. What worked ninety years ago will not work in 2011 and beyond.

    If we look at business in general when the internet was born how many companies thought they would be advertising and selling products on the internet. For all those companies that failed to adjust and make the changes, oh well society has moved on and most of use can’t even remember their names. These changes in business really occurred in a short period of time and impacted businesses more than anything else in society ever had. Think of business as globally and not necessarily your mom and pop type operations even though it also holds true.

    The moral is we either learn to adjust and move forward at a pace that society dictates or we will no longer enjoy things such as trapshooting. I ask the members (all of us) of the association to look at the bigger picture here and put past differences, grudges and ones negative opinions aside and promote what we have.

    I always wonder how many members have been scared off because of the stone throwing by others who have no first hand information but are relying on what there buddies told them.

    Respectfully Submitted,

    James Hammond
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    The days of the big shoots and big money are for the most part gone unless they run into a person who sponsors and puts up the money on their own like the Martins have done ... People have finally opened their eyes and seen reality when it comes to playing the money ... Neal Winston has made more then one comment regarding the money and the average Joes chance of winning it shooting against the "PROs", I think it was 15% of the time ... This years $100,000 Challenge was a rare exception and the young man who won it well deserved it ... The EC can give out all of the reductions they want and they will not change anyones mind who does not play the money now ... Some months back someone mentioned making a mandatory purse on the Championship events at the bigger shoots, nothing big maybe $10, 20, 25 dollars and see what happens ... There are a lot of shooters who talk about wanting to shoot for the money but when push comes to shove they back away in the majority of cases ... The day they (ATA or Whoever) make reductions mandatory is the day the ATA will lose a lot of shooters, which eliminates a lot of daily fees being collected by the ATA and the State Associations ... Many people shoot for fun, so whats the difference where they shoot from and why would it effect anyone else if they are as good as they think (and say) they are ..? I have a lot of respect for Phil Kiner and think he is a great guy but do not think he has the right to try and protect us from ourselves ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    WPT

    We are not there with the mandatory reductions. This first step will provide statistical data to see where we go next. Those of us including me that have not taken the reductions in past years might have compounded the issues we currently face with the handicap system.

    If we have whos fault would it be then?

    Thanks, James
     
  13. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    The most interesting part of Phil's letter was his expression of the need to move top shooters back beyond the 27.

    The silliest responses came from individuals who truly believe that Ray Stafford was gonna shoot at their two trap club in Timbuctoo Iowa and they have neither the room nor capital to extend their walkways!!
     
  14. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Phil Kiner hit the nail on the head w/1200fps shells by 2010 that gave the shooters time to shoot their 1250 fps shells up.

    The new 3 hole target rule and 1200 fps shells would seperate the cluster of shooters breaking 100 straights.

    There will be some but not as many and we do not need to add 30 yard walks period.

    Why those 2 rules were allowed to change is beyond me, that is 2 hole targets and 1250fps shells.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  15. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    The ATA Minutes from the August 2008 meeting cover this subject in detail. Clearly Mr Kiner was given an opportunity to present.

    To suggest that the letter may have been thrown in a waste paper basket deals a serious blow to credibility of the OP.

    Before making such unfounded allegations a review of the minutes for 2008 would have made this foolishness completely unnecessary.

    As far as the final comment from the OP. I don't think anyone but the OP would support such an idea.
    "ANY PROPOSED CHANGES BY THE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE OR BOD MUST BE SENT AND POSTED IN ALL GUN CLUBS FOR REVIEW BY THE MEMBERS FOR AT LEAST 90 DAYS."


    Shawn McNeil
     
  16. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    so your suggestion I read the minutes of a meeting 4 years ago, I don't believe I can bring up minutes that long ago on ATA website, it is hardly current.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  17. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    your suggesting the ATA website has not been updated on over 4 years???
     
  18. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    Gary Bryant
    The minutes are there for anyone to download and read.
    If you want to be taken seriously before you start slinging mud, check your facts.

    You were wrong and you owe Mr. Winston an apology.


    Shawn McNeil
     
  19. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    Mr. Bryant

    I guess I found it to. Took a minute or two but it was there. Lets promote and move forward. The past is the past and we need to be smart enough to move forward. We all know what the true definition of "Assume" means.

    At 09:36 Hrs., IN RE: Meeting with Phil Kiner 1355
    President Neil M. W inston called for the next Order of Business and introduced Phil Kiner and requested that 1356
    he review his professional observations and recommendations that were sent to the ATA Delegates for their review 1357
    and consideration. 1358
    Phil thanked the Executive Committee for the opportunity to review his letter, “Let’s Talk Membership 1359
    Retention” with them and to respond to any of their questions. Phil read his opening paragraph to the Executive 1360
    Committee for introductory purposes. 1361
    “It seems to me that there are two opposite approaches to making rules/laws. The first is to make 1362
    them so stringent that the number of those who will take advantage of the system is reduced to the 1363
    absolute minimum - regardless of how many non-cheaters it impacts negatively. The other approach 1364
    is to make the rules liberal enough, so that, while it is assumed that some cheaters will be able to play 1365
    the system, the majority of the general population will remain relatively unhindered/unpunished in their 1366
    pursuits within the system. I also think that politicians will often embrace the status quo rather than 1367
    advocate change because people (members) might not like the change, and doing nothing is “safer” 1368
    (when it comes to re-election time) than doing something. This is true when doing nothing is not 1369
    actually in the long-term best interests of the majority of the population (members).”
     
  20. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Mr. McNeil. Somebody owes Neil Winston a public apology. I'll believe it when i see it though.


    Two threads started by the same person and both with bad info.
     
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