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Whatcha gonna do?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by straightaway, Jul 10, 2010.

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  1. straightaway

    straightaway TS Member

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    A question for those that are advocates of a "pro class" and or adding yardage to trapfields along with increasing target difficulty.

    Let's say this is established and all of the nationally recognized "Big Dogs" are "put in their place", what are you gonna do with next tier of truly talented, truly dedicated, truly amature shooters that will continue to beat you the way they do now? What about the next level and then next?

    I read where some said "I've shot thousands and thousands of targets and didn't get any better and i still can't compete with them. Welllll have you ever heard of quality over quantity? You keep practicing bad / innefective habits and form and you get what you get. (you mean to say that because they're just better than me they get to win??? The gubmint needs to redistribute the talent cause it ain't fair!)

    Do what you will. The best will remain the best and the wannabees will whine.


    Have a Great day! Dan
     
  2. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    straightaway

    "Do what you will. The best will remain the best and the wannabees will whine."

    So tell us Dan who said they wanted to make the best anything but the best? When I first started to shoot I very quickly realized I would never be one of the best and I don't really want to be. I would like to see however that if a shooter who is not on 27 shoots a good score he has a chance. Which used to be the case when I started shooting.

    Now it isn't the case I do not advocate a Pro class/division is needed. I do however believe that the 27 yard max has out lived its usefulness. It is time to move the back fence back.

    Bob Lawless
     
  3. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Before we move the fence back, lets make it higher as in 3 hole targets and 3 dram 1200fps shells.

    It won't be perfect but it will do some good and save a lot of concrete and club costs.

    I am not advocating smaller shells, but the original shell enforcement as was in the rules in 1960s.

    Simple yet effective.

    A lot less shell inventory at the shell house either 2/34 dram or 3 dram
    7 1/2s or 8s.




    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Dr.Longshot

    "It won't be perfect but it will do some good and save a lot of concrete and club costs."

    It won't be perfect, and it will do some good in other words a band-aid for a broken arm!!!!!!!!!!

    You want to save concrete and money for the clubs are those the same clubs that can't afford concrete but they can afford Pat traps at $7,500 a pop and voice call for their fields at $1,000-plus per field? you mean those clubs can't afford it they need to save some money????????????

    You are amazing you bitch about the speed of the shells and the spread of the angles on the targets because those thing will do some good but they won't be perfect. Is that what you do when you need medical attention use measures that don't cure the problem but just make it better????? Amazing absolutely Amazing.

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. straightaway

    straightaway TS Member

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    You want to fix it? Make reductions mandatory. Go back to "three hole" target angles and the shell requirements Gary lists.

    The question is, what are you going to do about the people that replace the current crop of "Big Dogs"?

    It appears that a lot of people believe that if Phil, Leo, Kay, Ray, Harlan, etc. are separated from "the ranks of the mediocre" that Joe average guy would be more competetive. Wrong.

    Every club / area in the country has a top shooter or two that beats up on the local population consistently. These people would then be the next round of "amature" big dogs. Little or no thought is being given to this by those that advocate a pro class or adding concrete.

    So, whatcha gonna do with them? Keep adding to the pro class until this whole thing has come full circle?


    And, oh, learn to practice with a purpose to improve.

    Have a Great Day! Dan
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    For my club, adding concrete would involving moving a mountain. It took a large back hoe 8 hours to dig out one additional yard on post 4 (26-27) and two yards on post 5 (25-27). To add three yards it would involve moving light poles and the road that is 10 feet above the firing line just behind the 27 yard line. Our costs would approach $60,000.

    Some others, who did not do well in their Geometry class, have suggested that the house could be moved forward. I can only smile and shake my head at this suggestion.

    Three hole targets would make a difference. That would make the targets more difficult for everyone and quite possibly lower the scores of the short yard shooters more than it would the long yard shooters.

    Gary Bryant- Three dram shells are not restricted to 1200 ft/sec. The 1250+ handicap shells now fit well into the definition of three dram loads.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I posted my thoughts on another thread and it aptly fits here also. I must also ask how many of the top notch shooters are standing in line at the smaller clubs wanting to shoot a 4 squad event? Spinning facts don't make them true facts for the game either.

    "Our sport is no different than many other things in life when we decide to change directions or methods. A simple change may have deliberate or unintended consequences as a result. That sort of change folks is exactly why we have these kinds of discussions or family arguments.

    As a group, our organization was sailing along in great fashion until the late 70s. To better understand the before and after change, one must know what made the organization work so well prior. Reading our history and the changes made necessary is vital for understanding the process that made our organization the success it was until the late 70s.

    The widespread cheating of target settings for an easier target was adopted as the best thing to ever happen to our sport. Comparing that accepted change to any other change in the history of trapshooting was a complete reversal of direction! Instead of further handicapping the most proficient shooters in our sport, the change made it easier for them!! That simple change skewed our historical records shot under much more difficult target settings! The change also resulted in more targets being registered by less shooters! The answer is simple, that change made it far easier for the most proficient shooters in the game to score higher with even higher averages than ever before.

    Our leadership failed to follow historical protocol and caved in to those thinking they had a better idea for the sport. Adopting a cheating practice as being best for our sport was a mistake at that time and it continues today. We're playing follow the leader with the skeet shooting sport in making the game of trapshooting easier also, look at organized skeet today? Their numbers have dropped drastically, the same thing is happening in our game too!

    This isn't about handicapping the most proficient shooters out of the game, it's all about dispelling the notion of perfection which the skeet game accomplished earlier! History speaks volumes unless or until some Einstein's comes along with a better "idea"? A better idea for who, individuals or the organization as a whole? I think we know the correct answers (historically speaking) but allow pride to cloud the thinking processes for what's best for the sport. What's our sports next change, if any? SO,, "whatcha gonna do", whatcha wanna do? What's the best overall decision for the health of the sport of trapshooting?"

    Hap
     
  8. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    OK Pat, it was too early for a coherent post anyway, but that would make matters worse because both the house AND the runways would have to be moved forward if there was not enough room to extend the runways back.

    MK
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Hap,

    How about putting skeet and trap together. Shoot 16 yard trap with 4 guns, 12, 20, 28and 410 guage. Might increase attendance by picking up shooters from skeet and sporting clays. HMB
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    HMB, I think it would be a lot of fun and challenging to shoot 100 targets, 25 with each ga. and see who masters the .410 first! I'm sure it would draw in some of both skeet and SC's guys too! BUT, that wouldn't be the game of trap at all as intended.

    What our illustrious Einstein leadership has already accomplished in changing the game of trap has destroyed the historical records? Records set under far more difficult target angles and distances simply can't be compared to what we shoot today. I feel if we were to totally change the game of trap as it was intended or as it should be today, we would simply create another type of shotgun game? For me personally, if it can be shot with a shotgun and the target is moving, I'm game.

    We must figure out if the leadership of the skeet organization continues to feel they made the correct call in making the game of skeet easier several years ago. ATA is closely following in their footsteps making the game of trap easier also. I use the word "easier" in a narrow vein, the most proficient shots have mastered trap rather handily while the average shooter didn't notice much difference at all. Our better shooters in the game have a higher max yardage average than does the average shooter at the 16 yard line!!

    Our leadership failed our sport big time when they allowed the cheating to take hold in the beginning!! Instead of fixing the problem, they compounded it!! Some leadership I'd say! If I was hunting for leadership and there was an open season, if one of those guys responsible jumped outa the bushes, I wouldn't even cock my gun!!

    Hap
     
  11. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

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    Same old solution,You earn yardage,shoot your earned yardage where ever it may be.
     
  12. straightaway

    straightaway TS Member

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    Still no answer to the original question............

    The banter forth and back about adding ydg, do this do that, has been about beat to death and has nothing to do with the question I asked.


    Have a Great Day! Dan
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    straightaway

    "The banter forth and back about adding ydg, do this do that, has been about beat to death and has nothing to do with the question I asked."

    Well Dan that is the problem you asked 4 questions in your first post on this thread. Then in your next post you asked 4 more questions. So tell us Dan could you simplify it by asking one at a time??????

    There is one question that you asked that has a logical answer, you asked,

    "what are you gonna do with next tier of truly talented, truly dedicated, truly amature shooters that will continue to beat you the way they do now?"

    That is simple wait to see if it happens you are assuming that this will happen. Yet you can not tell anyone if or when it will happen. What is it they say about assume makes an ass-of-u-me.

    The last time the back fence was moved was 1955 that was 55 years ago and they added 2 yards so if 5 yards are added just when do you predict the next tier will continue to beat everyone????? Thats the question you have facing you.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. straightaway

    straightaway TS Member

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    Bob,

    There's only the main question that an answer was asked for. And by your latest response, you appear to have figured that out. Either that, or you
    ass-of-u-me that question is the one that needs an answer.

    And you are wrong. Again. Still.

    Have you ever heard of a FMEA? (failure mode and effects analysis) It's just a little item that happens to be a requirement of properly run business organizations, domestic and international, be they manufacturing or service. Properly done, a FMEA allows a failure or potential failure to be designed OUT of a product or service.

    The next tier is already in place. They have been.

    Have a Great Day!
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    straightaway

    "And you are wrong. Again. Still."

    Lets see you ask several questions I answer one of them and you declare me to be wrong. You give an answer that is applied to business. According to what you feel makes it right you use business practices to apply to breaking targets. This of course make me wrong!!!!!!

    Well I won't say you are wrong but I will say that anyone that thinks that they can predict that a simple yardage change will take the current crop of Big Dogs and reduce them to has beens. If not why say,

    "Let's say this is established and all of the nationally recognized "Big Dogs" are "put in their place" what are you gonna do with next tier"

    It would appear that you have made another assumption. I said in one post that I do not advocate a Pro class/division. I also said,

    "So tell us Dan who said they wanted to make the best anything but the best?"

    I am not interested in making anyone anything they aren't all I am advocating is giving equal yardage to equal scores a 27yd shooter gets the same yardage as a 18-26yd shooter gets that all brother. That of course doesn't happen now.

    BTW history doesn't seem to prove your theory about FMEA yardage was added in 55 at present none of the Big Dog to my knowledge were in the ranks of the Big Dog of that group. The yardage was added so you seem to think to defeat that group.

    So much for the next tier, then again I was under the impression that business was a little more structured than what you preach.

    "Properly done, a FMEA allows a failure or potential failure to be designed OUT of a product or service."

    Just out of curiosity what type of a business is soothsaying as I believe that is what is necessary to predict the next tier in trapshooting!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. The Stive

    The Stive Member

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    In my opinion, our game is great the way it is. The better more talented shooters will beat the rest of us average or above average shooters. On any given day any shooter can have a great day and score right up there with the best of them. You have to ask yourself, why do I like to shoot? If the answer is because I enjoy it, enough said. John
     
  17. straightaway

    straightaway TS Member

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    No Bob, I made no assumption. You just decided to interject YOUR..... unique interpretation of MY question.

    I never said I wanted the best to be less than best. Again, your own ....unique interpretation. They will continue to be the best as long as their equipment is not pushed beyond physical limitations and luck becomes a factor.

    What I am saying is that there are several shooters who do not receive national recognition and are not quite as famous or well known. They are the next teir.

    If you can't answer the question, that's fine. All that one needs to do is follow the shoot reports in T&F to make an informed decision on that.


    "According to what you feel makes it right you use business practices to apply to breaking targets"

    If you think that the clubs and the ata that provide the services and record keeping for the membership should not be run as businesses, you sir are a greater fool than what you have already made yourself out to be.

    I grow weary of trying to teach the pig to sing.

    If Ivanhoes parent's had performed a FMEA, it is a very safe bet that multiple forms of birth control would have been implemented.

    Have a Great Day! Dan
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    straightaway

    "Do what you will. The best will remain the best and the wannabees will whine."

    Did you write this statement???? Like maybe in the last two sentences of your first post??? If so who said that you wanted this,

    "I never said I wanted the best to be less than best."

    Well Dan I don't know where you got that but I never said it either so I made no "unique interpretation." What I did say is

    "So tell us Dan who said they wanted to make the best anything but the best?"

    That is a question about your original quote about wannabees so answer it or ignore it but don't blame me for it. As I just wanted to know where you got the statement you used.

    First of all Dan you need to get to reality. please tell me where I have been disrespectful of your opinion???? Then answer one question for me at least I tried to answer yours. Of course you wouldn't satisfied with any answer that was given except FEMA that has become obvious. Probably why no one else attempted to answer it.

    The question is does a 21 yard shooter and a 27 yard shooter receive the same actual yardage for a 100 in handicap????

    When you come in here and start a thread and you aren't able to prove your point. Please don't take your anger out on me you asked an unanswerable question and you can't get an answer and it would appear that is my fault.

    BTW you said,

    "If you think that the clubs and the ata that provide the services and record keeping for the membership should not be run as businesses"

    So tell us all how that relates to to the business of being in the top tier or the next tier and what the name of the business is that controls breaking targets????

    Something to think about businesses don't break targets people do you Moron. Oh and your have a great day crap doesn't reflect your true personality.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Pat Ireland I totally disagre with your post of 1250 fps shells fit in the 3 ndram category.

    The shell boxes are marked 1250 fps + or - 90 fps makes a 1340fps shell a legal shell by SAAMI stds.

    3 Dram Eqv 1200fps shells all shells to be loaded to this specification like they were in the 50s, 60s and 70s.

    1250fps and Max Dram shells will be illeagal shells.

    If what you say is true then Sorting Clay 1300 fps shells are legal trap loads
    subtract 90 fps and you have 1210fps 1 1/8th oz loads.

    This is the same thing but instead of adding the +or- 90fps subtract it!!!!!

    It can go both ways adding 90fps or subtracting it.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
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