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What really causes a flinch?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Shootrman, Nov 12, 2007.

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  1. Shootrman

    Shootrman Member

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    What really auses a flinch? I have heard different ideas on this subject, mostly anticipated recoil, and not seeing the bird. I tend to believe it is more like not seeing the target and this is my reasoning. With a pull trigger I suck. It's really odd, with a rifle I don't have a flinch or when I am hunting. But if I shoulder the gun while trapshooting I will literally flinch 60 maybe 70% of the time. If I shoulder the gun but don't look down the barrel until after I call pull I do ok. Currently I shoot a release for trap. Let's hear your veiws please. Rich
     
  2. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    The gun not fitting

    The wrong relationship of the gun to the bird- ie changing the relationship as you swing- again a sign of the gun not fitting

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  3. Shootrman

    Shootrman Member

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    Gene maybe your more knowledgeable on this subject then I am but for me I can raise alot of guns that feel comfortable to me but again....If its a pull trigger and I shoulder the gun someone yells LOST.
     
  4. Rem870TB

    Rem870TB Active Member

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    Recoil MAY be a factor for some, however, IMHO, most of the causes are in the mind of the shooter, in one form or another.

    Archers also can "flinch", the politest name they have for it is "Target Pannic".

    In modern archery, with compound bows, there is no pain from recoil, no alarming noise, little holding weight on the drawing muscles, it is all concentration, technique etc. without serious physical effort or discomfort.

    http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/TargetPanic/TargPan.html

    I personally have first hand experience with target panic when I shoot a bow.

    I do not have any flinching issues after 37 years of shooting trap.
     
  5. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    recoil is never a factor- or so rarely as not to count

    When you raise a gun- you fit yourself to it- when you move it- dynamic motion causes the gun to move independent from your body unless it fits-- it is that motion that changes the relationship of the gun to your eye and that change that tells your brain something is wrong

    regards

    Gene
     
  6. Clay McCracken

    Clay McCracken TS Member

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    You'll NEVER EVER flinch on the first shot of a round.

    Ask yourself why, and you will have the TRUE ANSWER ABOUT WHAT CAUSES A FLINCH.
     
  7. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    I flinched only when shooting my SKB O/U Int. trap, that gun kicked the snot out of me. I can only shoot light loads out of it with out flinching. My other trap guns kick very little and I don't flinch.
     
  8. Andy Ott

    Andy Ott Guest

    If you have a recoil flintch,it is as simple as that,if you have a site picture flinch it could a sure sign of timing shooting,the clocock in your head says shoot but the bird bead picture isn't there,result=vapor lock.
     
  9. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    I flinches twice on Sunday. I think I lost my concentration then paniced. I tried to focus more but I still flinch sometimes. Probably twice per round.
    Not sure why. With different guns. Dave T.
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Archers are release shooters with conventional bows? Many things can cause a flinch, no seeum, pain in various areas from ill fitted stocks. A bad pull trigger will also cause problems with rifles, shotguns and handguns! Excessive noise can cause problems too and the list seems endless. Even some release shooters flinch too! Hap
     
  11. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    Once something is in your head, you cannot get it out. I can shoot a release but I don't shoot a release. I believe a flinch begins with a visual problem and if that is not cured, the flinch matures into if you don't shoot a release you will have to quit shooting. Many, many shooters start their gun with their call. That little habit will lead to a visual flinch problem and left unchecked will lead to a release trigger or quit flinch. If you watch shooters when they do not get a bird when they call, many of them will be moving their gun at absolutely nothing.
     
  12. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    So, why do you suddenly stop flinching when shooting a release?? I shoot a release pull for doubles and never flinch on the first bird, only the 2nd! Once Spears gets caught up, I will go to RR!

    Gene, I assume YOU shoot a release??
     
  13. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

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    Frank, I've heard an explanation which seems to make some sense. It is only anecdotal, since I do not shoot a release trigger. The fellow explained that the release trigger was the natural progression in shooting cycle.

    You assume an aggressive posture TOWARD the trap house. Calling the target causes you to move your vision TOWARD the departing target. The target moves TOWARD a point away from the shooter. The release of the trigger is movement TOWARD the target.

    After he explained this, he went out and smokeballed 25 straight.

    Again, this is anecdotal. YMMV.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  14. JCS

    JCS TS Member

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    This is how someone explained it to me :

    The human brain has two sides to it.

    The conscious and the sub-conscious .

    The conscious side is for logical thinking .But it can only do one thing at a time.

    The sub-conscious is used to perform all the repetitive tasks .
    It can do many things at the same time ( breathing , chewing gum and running down the stairs ,all at the same time without CONSCIOUS thought on our part )

    But it's the STUPID side of the brain .Let's call it the DUMMY. It has to be taught what to do .But once it has learned how, it will perform all the things necessary to make it happen . Over and over again.

    Look at it this way .If you drive a car , or run down the stairs, do you consciously think about which muscles to pull and how much ? No, we don't .
    We have leaned to TRUST what the SMART side of the brain has taught the DUMMY and then to leave it alone, to do what it has to do .All the SMART side does is to tell the DUMMY , where to go , and how fast .

    If the SMART side then interferes with the DUMMY, we will trip and break our necks.

    It's the same with everything else , including Trap shooting .

    We have taught the DUMMY what to look for , how far to lead and whatever else is necessary to break the target . If we consciously interfere,the DUMMY get's confused .And if the two sides of the brain send conflicting information to the muscles, NOTHING may happen .That's a FLINCH .

    The harderst part of ANY Sport, including shooting ,is the MENTAL aspect .

    TRUST the DUMMY . YOU decide if you want to go shooting and when to mount your gun and call for the bird. After that ,let your mind go blank and LET THE DUMMY DO IT'S THING.
     
  15. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    SO when I flinch on the second shot of doubles, I can hear and feel my finger click click click away, taking up the very small amount of travel in the trigger. (Browning Ultra XT and/or Beretta 687 Silver P)If it wasn't so agravating, it might be funny...
     
  16. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Flinching is not caused by recoil. I actually enjoy the recoil part of shooting and have no problem shooting 200-400 3 dram 11/8 practice rounds in an hour or two. Yet, I had the occasional flinch which completly disappeared with the release.

    I used to think it was a visual disconnect. Not true. I don't see how a release trigger fixed a visual disconnect.

    I think is just a physiological oddity that some people have that occasionally causes a disconnect between the fire command from the brain and the trigger finger pull muscles.

    I do know that a release lets me shoot far more smoothly and accurately.

    What I really find amusing is all the old wives tales about releases. I have found none of them to be true.
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    A flinch is a learned reflex. It can be caused by many different things. Hap gave a good list of the basic things that can cause this type of reflex to develop. Recoil is one of these factors.

    jcs- If one of your cerebral hemispheres is operating at an unconscious level, than you are in worse shape than I am. You may be thinking about the brain stem and much of the cerebellum.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. balance365

    balance365 TS Member

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    Here is hwo a flinch was explained to me. There are 2 types, 1 is a recoil flinch and is self explanatory (also least common). The other is more of a brain flinch, often caused by trigger pull weight, but sometimes poor gun fit. The problem is the trigger pull is too low (yes that's right, too low). You are tracking to the target and BANG, the gun goes off, because you put too much pressure on the trigger as you were tracking to the target. Now your brain kicks in and says "what the ...", and your next target comes out and you get to the right sight picture but you can't pull the trigger because you think the right picture is wrong due to the last shot going off early. Now you're screwed, what is the right sight picture, why did my gun go off, when should I pull the trigger? You move from a learned reflex to a conscience decision that takes time and effort. You now have a flinch. My first line of defense was to tighten up my trigger pull, mine is now 4lb 9oz and my flinch is gone (or at least hiding real well). That's wrong you say. No its right, because now you have to exert more force, making that early discharge impossible. It takes some getting used to, but it helps since you can eliminate the first step to the flinch, which is the quick trigger. Eventually a release trigger is the ultimate cure. A pull trigger is a contraction reflex where the release trigger is a relaxation reflex. How much contraction is required is dependent on the trigger pull weight, but a relaxation move is like OFF on the muscle, just let go.
     
  19. jhh

    jhh Member

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    This isn't so much of a reply on what causes flinching as it is a thought on how to stop same. In the 70's and 80's I would see Rudy Etchen at a shoot once in a while and he was always easy to visit with. I had a wonderful Rem 32 that had one of his fathers stocks on it and when I ask him about the very tight grip he told me that it helped keep you from flinching. I began to notice that I would flinch more when shooting a gun with a straight grip or a Prince of Wales type grip than with a tighter grip. Through the years it seemed that trap type guns began to have tighter grips than field guns and got tighter through the years. Rudy felt that what you did when you flinched was start such jerk by suddenly closing your whole hand. If your hand was in an allmost uncomfortable and tight closed state, you were more likely to just use your finger to activate the trigger as opposed to your whold hand. My first Ljutic came with a pretty tight grip and now I see that most of the target guns have such. I have an old Sports Afield with an interview in it that Rudy gave and it is on Joel Etchen's web page. It made sense to me and through the years it seemed that I was less likely to flinch with a tight grip than otherwise. It has all been interesting to me, John Hancock
     
  20. Straight99

    Straight99 Member

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    For me it was all gun fit. I have shot trap for over 40 years and flinched with every gun I used. I tried light 1 oz and 7/8 oz loades with no help. Then I had Kolar make me a custom stock that fits. For the last year not one flinch. Its either that the stock fits me just right or it was so expensive I am afraid to flinch.
     
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