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What is Wrong with Our Handicap System?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by scott calhoun, Nov 12, 2007.

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  1. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Earl/Yukon -

    I can't imagine why people shooting scores that can't win would be considered the "major illness" of the handicap system. Although there are some that are prohibited by rule from getting a reduction/moving forward the vast majority who are standing at a yardage shooting bad scores are standing there because they want to. Forcing them to move forward is not going to make them happy - otherwise they would have moved forward (taken a reduction) on their own.

    Why are you concerned with people who shoot scores that can't win? Don't tell me you are trying to come up with a solution for which there is no problem - namely getting people in the winners circle who don't shoot well enough to win?

    Scott
     
  2. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I certainly don't see those guys as a problem of any sort in the handicap system. They pay their money and enjoy shooting, period, so their shooting sucks. No skin off anyone else as far as I can see and they abide by the rules as written. I shot there for years till I was offered a reduction and I took it! I personally think if your looking for ways of improving the game, good luck in your search. Reducing yardage for mediocre 27 yard shooters isn't the answer your looking for. Hap
     
  3. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    1)The earned yardage table is obsolete.


    Too many punches for 96s, 97s, and in some cases 98s, that earn no money and receive no trophies. Look at the last Grand and count the number of scores receiving punches but nothing else.


    2)There is no way to handicap the truly gifted shooter. These are the shooters that routinely earn 20-30 “honorary punches” per year.


    Suggestion: Change to an average based handicap system.


    Example: Everyone with a handicap average between 85% and 90% competes against each other regardless of where they stand. 22, 23, 26, 27 it doesn’t matter.


    This would allow those shooters who chose not to take reductions to still compete.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  4. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Earl/Yukon -

    I can't imagine why people shooting scores that can't win would be considered the "major illness" of the handicap system. Although there are some that are prohibited by rule from getting a reduction/moving forward the vast majority who are standing at a yardage shooting bad scores are standing there because they want to. Forcing them to move forward is not going to make them happy - otherwise they would have moved forward (taken a reduction) on their own.

    Why are you concerned with people who shoot scores that can't win? Don't tell me you are trying to come up with a solution for which there is no problem - namely getting people in the winners circle who don't shoot well enough to win?

    Scott
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I certainly don't see those guys as a problem of any sort in the handicap system. They pay their money and enjoy shooting, period, so their shooting sucks. No skin off anyone else as far as I can see and they abide by the rules as written. I shot there for years till I was offered a reduction and I took it! I personally think if your looking for ways of improving the game, good luck in your search. Reducing yardage for mediocre 27 yard shooters isn't the answer your looking for. Hap
     
  6. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    1)The earned yardage table is obsolete.


    Too many punches for 96s, 97s, and in some cases 98s, that earn no money and receive no trophies. Look at the last Grand and count the number of scores receiving punches but nothing else.


    2)There is no way to handicap the truly gifted shooter. These are the shooters that routinely earn 20-30 “honorary punches” per year.


    Suggestion: Change to an average based handicap system.


    Example: Everyone with a handicap average between 85% and 90% competes against each other regardless of where they stand. 22, 23, 26, 27 it doesn’t matter.


    This would allow those shooters who chose not to take reductions to still compete.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  7. Shootrman

    Shootrman Member

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    This always stirs up the mud. I think Yukon has a good point with 26 and 27 yrd. moving up if they cant consistantly cant cut the mustard. But there is the pride thing (understandable) and the prestigue that goes with that recognition and rightfully so. On the other hand (and here's were the flack comes in) keeping in mind the gentleman asked for our personal opinions. I do believe we have to have a professional class. If they can jeopardize a man for winning X-amount of dollars.....AMATEUR....DUH! Take the money completely out of the picture and see where we go.
     
  8. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    If you took everyone off the 27 that doesn't have a 94 average there would probably be 5 squads at the state shoots. Personally, I don't see what it hurts. In many cases it is a group that wants to shoot together, or ego. You may have some shooters quitting over it, and thats not worth it. We need as many shooters as we can get. It helps vendor numbers, bird counts, hotels, nearly everything is judged on importance by attendance numbers. There is not enough money to sponser a "Master class" unless the ATA is willing to pursue sponsers, and I don't see that happening. The ATA should appoint a "Sponser Dude" to pursue that, then maybe we can talk.
    I like to shoot against the big guys. What better incentive to shoot well? Shoot against the best in the world.
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Earl, those guys at the max EARNED that stripe under the current rule system! No matter what some may think, they earned their way there following to written rule! I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement at all here and that includes our current rule system! I'm a very firm believer in a no balk rule for shotgunning! If you mount that gun and point it downrange and call for a target, the results belong to you period. No ifs ands or butts or flinches,do overs or forgetting to load ol betsey and a whole host of other crap! With todays rules, yardage is so easy to get if that's what a shooter wants. Just attend a 3 squad shoot and shoot a blazing 85 for a high score and you're there. One of many reasons the 27 is growing by leaps and bounds.

    New shooters showing up PERCEIVE our game to be one of having to shoot perfect scores and bail out pretty quick! I called the last three friends I introduced to my sport and asked them why they quit. All were questioned why they didn't pursue the game. Their response was too much time and money to be perfect! I also asked them if they were included in a poll taken by ATA and I know their answer to that also. Regardless of how we think of our sport needing any changes, it just ain't gonna happen any time soon. So, if you enjoy shooting just shoot and follow the current rules as true sportsmen/women do. Hap
     
  10. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    Phil Kiner wrote a great article in T&F advocating change. But guess what - as a group, the ATA BOD is too brain dead to listen to the man. Not only is he a good shot, and has been shooting for many years, Mr Kiner also meets with shooters from all over the country. I think he really knows what he is talking about.
     
  11. ZeroHero

    ZeroHero TS Member

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    Mr. Hamman,

    My I ask why you took 7 years off? Seems strange that after returning and shooting only 300 handicap targets with a 75% average you want to fix the system. Maybe I'm not thinking correctly, but I tend to listen to someone like Mr. Hauser who has shot many targets for many years. I also get a laugh from the people who say "take the money out of it, that will fix it!" I think the system if pretty close. YES, I think it could be tweaked a bit, but the pour more concrete or make them use 7/8 oz are not the fix or cure all!

    Duke
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Too many top-score trophies; there should be winner, runner-up, and yardage groups thereafter.

    Neil
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Neil, you are right on this one. What's with a 12th place trophy?
     
  14. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I don't agree Hap. First, a check of T&F shows about 35 people per month earn a 27 yd pin. I don't think that rate is either a leap or bound and certainly not both.

    Second, I just went from the 20 to the 27 in about 14 months maintaining just about a 90% average at each yardage. The system is ridiculous requiring as much luck as skill. It discourages new shooters not with its shooting difficulty but with its capriciousness. By example, I got a half yard for second place at 160 man shoot with a 94 and a half yard at our state shoot with a 96 with 600 shooters and a full yard at a 60 man shoot with a 94 tying for first and no yards on 2 occasions for HOA 95s, once with 13 entries the other with 14.

    It is only easy if you shoot a lot of 96+s. As for those 3 squad shoots, I found it easier to shoot the 94s & 95s at larger shoots with well set targets for second than winning HOA with the same at the smaller shoots.
     
  15. motrap

    motrap Member

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    Neil ....... This statement confirms that you know that the present Handicap system falters at the 27 yard line! Why don't you care? Why don't we do any one of 3 things (or a combination) that would fix it, instead of devising a way to award trophies to circumvent the blatant short-comings and flaws?

    JBROOKS: "Neil, you are right on this one. What's with a 12th place trophy?" Here's what's with it ......... 12th out of a field of 2000, that includes 30 All-Americans ......... or 1st out of a field of 400 that, by definition, does not include ANY All-Americans (and in fact 1/2 of whom will be in a different group from you within 6 shoots) .......

    That's the real point ......... the ONLY reason to award Yardage Group TROPHIES and Class TROPHIES (other than AA) is to make more winners using less than winning scores ...... and that's fine, but to attribute any more importance than a marketing effort to these trophies, is delusional ......

    For a return to competition ..... Rudy

    P.S. We who advocate change with the present Handicap System, are NOT trying to have low (undeserving) scores win ........ rather we are trying to have winning scores not have to be nearly perfect (to allow more people the perception of a chance.)
     
  16. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    What is wrong with the system?

    If we had a perfect system there would still be people on here crying, pi$$ing and mowning, proving that the old stereo type of trap shooters as,

    THE biggest bunch of crybabies in one place! is true!

    For me, I have not proven what I feel I am capable of, I dropped a couple of clinkers in this past week, by them, people and maybe even the system will tell me to reduce. For me I will stay were I am at and see if I can get the clinkers to stay away and get a few more yards.

    Also if someone is not shooting well enough to stay back, and does take the reduction and then wins, what is the first thing to be said? about that or any other shooter taking a reduction and getting better? THAT Back biting, Sniping slander is all the incentive any person needs, to say take the reduction and SHOVE IT!

    Al
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I would take a 1st out of 400 over a 12th out of 2000 just so I wouldn't have to explain to someone looking at the trophy what an All American is.

    If you are such a hard charger Rudy, I assume you would just throw away anything less than first.
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks, not agreeing with me is neither here nor there. Just take a gander at the total number of 27 yard shooters at the larger shoots across the country? Especially those shooting 70s-80 scores repeatedly.

    "First, a check of T&F shows about 35 people per month earn a 27 yd pin. I don't think that rate is either a leap or bound and certainly not both."

    If we could match that number with NEW MEMBERS per month, I'd agree with you, we'd be in fine shape in my opinion but that's not happening. Our new member growth has stagnated for a reason and it's not all about how expensive our game is either.

    The question, "what is wrong with our handicap system", needs answered. Until a problem is realized, there will be no attempt to rectify it by anyone. Something changed our ability to attract new members and keep a higher ratio of them. It isn't time and cost alone, this sport has always been an expensive and time consuming game! The new shooters perceptions of our game isn't being considered as factor that I've heard of and that's a VERY important part of the equation for growth! Hap
     
  19. KelleyPLK

    KelleyPLK TS Member

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    Handicap , Many shooter will never see their full potenial until they shoot from 27 . Some major shootes should revise the yardages a person been shooting 20 years or longer still shooting 19-21 yards ? Whats this smell ilke , 20 yarder winning GRAND AMERICAN HANDICAP . WHERE IS KNOWN ABILITY RULINGS HIDING AT . TOP DOGS DONT HIDE IN SHORT YARDAGES . CLASSIFY MONEY OPTIONS IF YOU PLAY THE MONEY COME ON BACK SHOOTERS ! 27-25 . ELIMINATE SANDBAGGING AS ITS BEEN ALMOST SPONSERED IN THE PAST ! TO GET NEW BLOOD IN THE GAME . SHOOTING MID 50 WELL WINDUP WITH 89 THEN !Give us a break !


    PAt Kelley
     
  20. KelleyPLK

    KelleyPLK TS Member

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    Handicap , Many shooter will never see their full potenial until they shoot from 27 . Some major shootes should revise the yardages a person been shooting 20 years or longer still shooting 19-21 yards ? Whats this smell ilke , 20 yarder winning GRAND AMERICAN HANDICAP . WHERE IS KNOWN ABILITY RULINGS HIDING AT . TOP DOGS DONT HIDE IN SHORT YARDAGES . CLASSIFY MONEY OPTIONS IF YOU PLAY THE MONEY COME ON BACK SHOOTERS ! 27-25 . ELIMINATE SANDBAGGING AS ITS BEEN ALMOST SPONSERED IN THE PAST ! TO GET NEW BLOOD IN THE GAME . SHOOTING MID 50 WELL WINDUP WITH 89 THEN !Give us a break !


    PAt Kelley
     
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