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What is "out of time" with a Model 12?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bushmaster1313, Jan 27, 2010.

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  1. Bushmaster1313

    Bushmaster1313 Well-Known Member

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    Someone posted he got a Model 12 cheap because it was out of time.

    What does that mean?
     
  2. ohiomike

    ohiomike Member

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    Jan 29, 1998
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    What is

    In an "out of time" condition, a model 12 will fire without the bolt being fully closed.

    It is a fact that you can safely "slam fire" a model 12 by holding back the trigger and racking the bolt, this is a design feature and IS NOT the same as being "out of time".
     
  3. motordoctor

    motordoctor Shoji Tabuchi in Branson

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    ohio
    What is

    with the gun open and empty you pull and release the trigger repeatedly as you slide the action closed. the hammer should not fall until the gun is completely closed. Some of the guns being out of time the hammer will fall with the gun not completely closed or as you are closing it.
     
  4. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    What is

    How is this adjusted?
     
  5. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    What is

    $75.00 to Simmons will do it.
     
  6. bling 27

    bling 27 Member

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    What is

    I have 5 model 12's and I still am not sure what 'out of time' is. I have one that if you have the slide half-way forward, pull the trigger then let go of the trigger and move the slide all the way forward, it will fire. All of my other ones will not do this. Is the one 'out of time' ? Wayne
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    What is


    [​IMG]


    Study this diagram and it will direct you toward the fix of "timing" a model 12 properly. Usually it's a broken music wire spring on the release button that causes a lot of problems with the model 12s. Look closely at the position of the action slide bar where it's engaged with the bolt. In the upper diagram, it's not fully seated yet and the slide release still is engaged with the hammer lug. In the bottom diagram, the bolt is fully seated and the action bar is farther forward in the bolt cut-out. Notice too when the hook finally releases the hammer hook? Not till the bolt is in battery, properly.

    Hap
     
  8. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    What is

    Bling27, you just described the condition, Firing out of battery or out of time.
     
  9. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

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    What is

    It is true that broken/damaged wire springs of the action slide lock can be a cause of operational problems with the Winchester Model-12 mechanism. The wires are not a bit involved with the failure in question.

    The diagrams posted are mainly directed to showing the problem of the bolt failing to open after firing, not the problem of being capable of dropping the hammer prior to the bolt lockup being fully in battery. Notice the notes about the broken wire directly state that the gun won't open properly as being the fault in question looking for a cure.

    The real question would be why those that wrote the diagram notes didn't bother to state which wire would cause that problem, and what problem not mentioned would be caused by the other wire being out of service. I can divulge the answer after others have a chance to email me (not PM, OK?) their answer, and the earliest correct response can be given proper credit without needing to post an answer here, yet. Are you game to try your luck?

    The diagrams do provide a look at the hammer and hook relationship, but the explanation of operational relationship is better understood with some written description such as provided by Hap.

    The fault in question: hammer fall prior to lockup when the trigger is pulled. This can most often be caused by a basic lack of engagement of the hook and hammer lug, but the correction may be completed in more than one manner (since the problem can have more than one source), and the defective part(s) or surface(s) should be correctly identified to allow repair of the bad (and/or worse/worst) area(s). The correct amount of engagement and clearance is best left to experienced hands to provide the proper fitment/re-fitment of new or used/rebuilt parts.

    Rebuilding a Model-12 trigger assembly should be done whenever there is some question of proper operation of the trigger/safety/hammer subsection or the action slide lock/hammer/action slide subsection. This is typically best done with the complete mechanism, not just the trigger assembly, to ensure complete correct function of the firearm.

    --------------------------------

    These described tests should obviously be performed with an empty firearm.

    Testing the slide lock can be accomplished by fully closing the action, barely releasing the action slide by depressing the action slide lock button (no stroking action to the slide necessary), and pulling the trigger as the rear of the bolt is disengaged from the frame locking notch. If the hammer falls, -bad. If you hear a "click" and the hammer falls when the bolt is re-closed, -bad. There is no need to keep pulling the trigger while closing the action, since any ability to fire out-of-battery in that manner will also fire in the manner just described and test the level of problem, to some extent.

    While you are testing, apply the safety to the cocked mechanism and then pull the trigger to feel the amount of slack present to the safety button. If a light or heavy click is heard/felt, and the trigger does not basically remain or return to the rest position due to the excess travel of the trigger available while the safety is on, there is excess slack in the safety mechanical fit that requires remedial action. An extreme case would have a substantial click sound, and then you would notice that the safety button is extremely hard to push off (with unloaded action closed) and the hammer would immediately fall when the safety button finally got all of the way to the "off" position. DANGEROUS!!!

    These tips will help Model-12 owners and potential users identify some serious safety issues that may be present in mechanisms. Avoid use of any example that fails these safety issue tests until remedied by a Model-12 specialist, if possible.

    Kirby
     
  10. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    What is

    The main cause of bad timing is the trigger being too short. With so many shooters wanting their triggers tuned-up, they tend to rework the end of the trigger where it engages the hammer notch. When too much material is removed...which can be quite easy...the hammer ends up advancing to far forward in the cocked position.

    When this happens, the hook on the action bar lock will not rotate over the top of the lobe on the hammer, but instead, bump directly into it. A shooter will then correct this by filing the hook for more clearance...BAD MOVE. This just cures a symptom, not the actual problem, and the gun is now "out-of-time".

    To correct the original problem, a new trigger or rebuld of the existing trigger is needed. A new trigger WILL BE needed to be fitted, best done by more experienced hands.

    Doug
     
  11. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    What is

    Is it dangerous if the gun fires when out of time? Sounds that way.
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    What is

    Hey guys, you are making it sound as though all model 12s need major work when it may not be all that necessary! I've worked on my model 12s since I was a kid following the advice given in my old "gunsmith" kinks covering most of the problems associated with model 12s. Covered in other gunsmithing books I have also.

    If the gun suddenly begins acting up, the action slide lock is the first place to look. Unless you know what to look and test for prior, to see the problem, the action slide lock must be removed from the trigger assy. Then even a blind man can see the problem. Gun DR is right if the trigger pull was lightened by a shade tree mechanic. Besides what he said, the safety may not work properly in addition.

    Serious problems must be fixed by a competent gunsmith, a broken timer wire can be fixed by one who's mechanical minded fairly easy. With the model 12 Winchester, it's possible for the gun to continue shooting with many broken internal parts!

    Chango2, with the model 12, a more dangerous situation than being out of time is a broken firing pin!! Why? Because it can fire when closed even if the gun is new!!

    Hap
     
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