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What is full choke?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Herb Roach, Jun 28, 2010.

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  1. Herb Roach

    Herb Roach Member

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    Many of the guns used today were made before the change in loading components. Specifically the shot protector plastic skirts on most wads used today. The forerunner to this was of course the Winchester Mk 5 plastic insert, a strip of plastic that was not a part of the wad. Let us assume that the standard for a full choke prior to the Mk 5 shell was 75% of shot in a 30" circle at 40 yds. Also assume that we definately get more shot in a 30" circle with the latest innovations in wads. Do we reclassify our chokes? Maybe a choke called "Modified" in the 1940's, shooting the technology of the time would now be called "Full" or "Super Full" using todays technology. Is it possible that some chokes we use today using today's components are holding shot inside a 15" circle at 40 yds. If so, it kind of like shooting rifles at trap??? Is my thinking flawed, and if so why.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I think it must be flawed, Herb, since it's based of things that do not happen. It's rare to find a gun which will consistently shoot near even 80% at forty yards. Oh I know, half the posters here have guns which "shoot way tighter than that and totally even as well," but no one typing that has ever loaned me one to test or even tested their own, most likely.

    Neil
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Neil, mine breaks 80% of the birds I hit at 40 yards!!
     
  4. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Anything from .025" to .040", depending..........
     
  5. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    "Is it possible that some chokes we use today using today's components are holding shot inside a 15" circle at 40 yds."

    If you mean holding ALL the shot, or even HALF the shot inside a 15" circle, the answer is NO, it is not possible (unless your payload is no more than one pellet; then it might be possible on a certain, low percentage of shots...but not on every shot).
     
  6. Herb Roach

    Herb Roach Member

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    OK, the other half of the argument. What kind of percentages would you get in today's guns (chokes) if they used the horse hair wads of 75 years ago?
     
  7. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    Is the question concerning how wads affect the pattern? I submit that the wad has little to no effect on the over all pattern. I believe that it is determined solely by the choke.

    So, a pattern from a Full choke of days gone by and a Full choke of today will be the same. At least I don't believe there will be a statistical significance.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Rastoff on this one. I have found that 0.040 barrels ( or tubes) generally have the tightest patterns. Lots of choke tubes makers call their 0.035 products "full" and tighter "super full."

    At usual altitudes, you will play hell finding any of them with either restriction providing consistent 80% patterns, and there are some big-name "full" choke tubes which won't average 70%. I've decided that if you want "full" performance, just use super-full and don't worry about it.

    Neil
     
  9. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    What is so great about the Full choke in a Winchester Model 97 that still has a following in "Card Shoots" another topic that I don't know anything about ??
     
  10. BunkerGuy

    BunkerGuy TS Member

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    There is a list of pattern runs done with choke tubes 0.042 down to 0.033 and 24 gram shells at

    http://www.shootingbunker.com/OpenItUp.html.

    Looks like percentages don't change much, but the uniformity improves noticeably as the constriction is lessened. I guess that means that "full Choke" is something more than 0.030.

    I remember Remington advertising that pattern percentages would tighten 10% by using Power Piston wads instead of nitro card/cork filler wadding. . .

    - - Bill
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The amount of constriction is only one part of the equation, what the shot encounters on its trip down the barrel is another factor to be considered. HMB
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    That's a terrific article you have there, BunkerGuy. I take it there were five five patterns of each load?

    I've personally lost any trust in holes telling me anything but I guess that's why people do tests, right? I did notice that you did second-barrel tests at 35 yards and I, who do not know anything about your sport at all, assumed that the distances would be greater. Is that a "standard" distance to do that sort of thing, much as we use 40 yards though the truth is almost certainly more?

    Thanks again for the link. It's a keeper.

    Neil
     
  13. BunkerGuy

    BunkerGuy TS Member

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    Neil,

    I have the Excel spreadsheet of the "full choke" runs. There were 15 patterns done for each choke to establish the final figures. It appears that's the absolute minimum to get somewhat trustworthy figures for uniformity. . .

    If you have an email address (via PM?) or some such, I can get a copy to you if you'd like to look it over.

    - - Bill
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Fifteen! Wow! That's impressive, Bill.

    I'd love a copy, thanks. Email above.

    Neil
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Herb Roach

    "Let us assume that the standard for a full choke prior to the Mk 5 shell was 75% of shot in a 30" circle at 40 yds."

    I have a question if I have a gun in my gun safe that is Full Choke. It has never been fired, it has never shot 75% or even 40% of the shot in a 30" circle. Does that mean it isn't a Full Choke??????

    As far as I know choke is determined by the amount of constriction in the barrel. That constriction is measured in the barrel not on a pattern board.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bob, there are two definitions of choke, and careful users say which one they are talking about when they say, for example, "Full."

    Full choke by measurement = probably 0.035 constriction in most manufacturers' catalogue.

    Full choke by performance = traditionally 70% in 30 inches at 40 yards, but mostly around 75% today.

    Your gun in the safe is full by measurement; it has no definition of choke by performance, yet.

    Neil
     
  17. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    Great article on 24gr patterns! It seems to me that in Bunker you would be especially interested in the performance of your barrels because you have so little shot to work with. I am happy to see that you worked so hard and documented it for everyone to read! Thanks!
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    BunkerGuy, thanks for sharing your very thorough research with us guy! Great job and very informative too!

    Miketmx, the sought after model 97 barrels are the taper bore barrels. I'm guessing they were hammer forged over a mandrill rather than bored on a lathe for the most part. There were a few model 37s bores done the same way and Arnold Riegger shot those till he wore them out prior to switching to the model 12s.

    Hap
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Neil there is a strong possibility that you are classifying chokes by performance not by what it actually is.

    Changing wads, powder, primers. and other parts of the shells including the shells themselves may change performance but they can't change the choke constriction.

    A V8 automobile engine comes in different CIDs but they are all V8 engines. Usually the CID determines the performance and in some cases the work load that the engines is best suited for. The accomplished Gearhead/Mechanic or which ever they wish to be known as can tell you that a good engine can be made to suit almost any purpose. They all are however still V8 engines.

    Any shotgun can be used for any purpose if it has removable chokes. You are talking about performance not chokes. Changing the wads doesn't change the chokes the name of the thread is what is full choke not do todays chokes differ from yesterdays.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, Bob, but what I am saying is just a fact, that's all. There are two definitions of choke, recognized by everyone with any interest in the subject.

    They both fit the definition of "what it actually is." The measurement one is done with a mike, the second with shells. The result of the second may be (but in my experience not nearly as tightly as people who have not done it keep telling me) tied to a particular shell. The linked article makes that perfectly clear, twice. I don't think what BunkerGuy and I have written here is open to argument at all. They are facts, and you can't argue facts.

    Neil
     
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