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what if ffl expires before dealer receives gun?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by quartering, Sep 23, 2011.

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  1. quartering

    quartering Active Member

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    a fellow bought a gun from me. the receiving ffl's license expires oct 1, 2011. i can ups it monday, sept 26. but what happens if the gun doesn't get there before the expiration date? thanks
     
  2. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    You need to find out if he has renewed in a timely manner. If he is going out of business, you know the answer.

    The short answer is, get the buyer to find another dealer.
     
  3. Rich219

    Rich219 Active Member

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    He probably hasn't receive his renewed license yet, I wouldn't worry about it.
     
  4. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    The ATF is always way behind,
     
  5. GrandpasArms

    GrandpasArms Active Member

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    I am certain there is a legal issue receiving a firearm without a valid FFL and there certainly is an issue sending a firearm to someone without a valid FFL. I wouldn't put my FFL (or continued liberty) in jeopardy.

    Larry
     
  6. frostyman

    frostyman Well-Known Member

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    If you have an FFL and you are sending it to another person with an FFL, the date you sent it is the day you sold it for your records.
     
  7. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    BS- the date you send it isnt the date the FFL can transfer it so forget about that definition of sale-- that type of shit house reasoning will get you in jail.

    The ATF will issue a letter if the guy applied for renewal on time

    You cant legally send to an FFL that you have reason to know is not valid-

    You have reason here unless you have a copy of his letter

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  8. autogun

    autogun Member

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    BS BS BS
    You took the guys money and he sent a valid ffl. Move your ass and send him the gun.
     
  9. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Auto gun keep giving that advice and you might go to jail also.

    You arent sending "the guy" anything

    The only reason you can send anything to anyone is because the receiving person has an FFL

    In this case the person receiving the gun is known not to have an FFL

    What cant you understand

    You would whine like a little baby as they throw you in prison

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  10. autogun

    autogun Member

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    Here is what I understand:
    1)The sender had to have received a valid ffl on or before 9/23/11 from the buyer.
    2) The ffl is valid on its face until 10/1/11.
    3) 7 days is enough time to ship and receive anything within the continental USA.
    4)Send the guy his gun (via the ffl).
    5) Stop looking for problems.
    6)Never listen to anyone from Iowa; those people brought us O'Bama.

    David Vandercoy
     
  11. cf4952

    cf4952 Member

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    Actually had this happen (as the buyer). Our dealer though he'd renewed, but somehow paperwork got lost. Seller was fine because he shipped it while the ffl was valid. I couldn't get the gun from the dealer because the ffl was not valid to do transfer. He couldn't ship it back either. Took a few month to get the ffl renewed. Got the gun though.
     
  12. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Well auto gun- David- you just made that scenario up because you now know you are wrong

    He didnt say any of that.

    If that were the case- he would call the FFL and make sure he was open or could receive the gun- and he would then overnight it

    Now you are backtracking big time David- so you wont look as dumb but you look worse

    If there is any doubt- that the FFL can recieve it before his license has expired then it is an illegal shipment if that happens- plain and simple

    On top of that this particular crime doesnt need intent. However there are a couple of other associated crimes that do need intent.

    But guess what- if you have reason to believe that his FFL may not be valid then even intent is satisfied. Just by asking on this forum what happens is indicative of intent. He knows it could happen.

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene

    PS- dont ever listen to hallway lawyers like David

    Spend a few dollars and go to a local attorney if in doubt and ask him or her this question.
     
  13. larryjk

    larryjk Member

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    If an FFL has applied for a renewal he has a 30 day grace period on the old license. I had to use it before I started asking for an extension letter if they weren't going to get my renewal to me in a timely fashion. The last time I had to apply for renewal, there was a block to check if you want an extension letter if they can't issue on time. But now they seem to be able to get the renewal out on time. I always make sure I have sent the app for a renewal at least 60 days before the expiration of the old license.
     
  14. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    ATF buyouts could slow investigations

    The cash-strapped Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives expects its impending staffing cuts will slow down its criminal investigations and processing of firearm and explosive license applications.

    ATF, which is expecting budget cuts in fiscal 2012, said between 250 and 275 law enforcement officers, special agents, chemists, investigators and other employees are likely to accept buyouts or early retirements. That would cut ATF's 5,100-person workforce by about 5 percent.

    Audrey Stucko, acting assistant director of ATF's Office of Human Resources and Professional Development, said Friday that ATF is turning to buyouts and early outs to avoid having to furlough or lay off employees.

    "We want to be able to survive, and we want to be able to do that with a reduced staff so that we have sufficient resources to at least fund those folks," Stucko said. "The people that leave, we want them to leave of their choosing and not of us directing them to leave because we need to reduce our budget."

    Stucko said that the staffing cuts will likely hamper ATF's ability to prevent violent crime, and could have ripple effects slowing down the entire judicial process. With fewer chemists and other lab technicians analyzing evidence, it will take longer to get evidence results to investigators and slow down their completion of cases. This will mean it takes longer to get cases to U.S. attorneys' offices and bring accused criminals to trial, she said.

    There will also be fewer employees approving licenses for people in the firearms and explosives industries, Stucko said, which will slow down that process.

    The Senate Appropriations Committee on Sept. 15 approved a bill that would provide nearly $1.1 billion for ATF — $22 million less than 2011 levels and $57 million below its budget request. The House Appropriations Committee in July approved a bill that would keep ATF funding at 2011 levels.

    ATF would like to see as many as 400 employees take the buyouts or early outs, but based on a survey earlier this year, doesn't expect that many to accept the offer. ATF expects to save between $15 million and $20 million by reducing its ranks. Employees accepting the offer must be off the books by Nov. 30.

    The Office of Personnel Management last month granted ATF authority to offer buyouts and early outs through June 2013, and Stucko said it could announce another offer if it needs to cut costs further.
     
  15. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    Gene is right, the receiving ffl does the transfer.
     
  16. Smithy47

    Smithy47 Member

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    If you want to know the straight scoop, call the ATF and ask them. They have always been very helpful to me anytime I had a question.
    When I renewed my FFL last time, I sent my money and form in months early. As I was gettng close to expiring, I called them. They sent an extension letter out right away so I could stay in business. The new FFL came less than a week after the extension letter and before my FFL expired.
    I would make sure the guy applied for a renewal. If he has not, you better get the firearm delivered ASAP. If he has not applied for a renewal, find another FFL to handle the transaction.
    I also think the BATF has more pressing issues than going after a day late FFL holder -----
    Best regards. Bob
     
  17. Rebel Sympathy

    Rebel Sympathy Well-Known Member

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    The ATF allows transactions up to 30 days after expiration date - due to delays in renewal processing. (Yes, I hold an FFL.)

    Mike Durhan
     
  18. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Per my 2000 copy of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference guide the dealer can continue to make and receive firearms transactions for 45 days past the expiration date.


    Part 178 Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition. 178.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees (makes no reference to the renewal application)

    ATF Rule 75-27 Operations under pending renewal application ( states that if the expiration date is over 45 days past it is the responsibility of the transferee to check with the ATF to confirm that a renewal has been filed and is still under consideration)

    So you should be OK.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  19. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Wrong - Wrong- Wrong- Wrong

    What is the legal significance of "you should be ok"

    Nowhere does it say the guy has filed for renewal--

    Nowhere does it say the guys FFL is even active.

    The person involved in this transaction has doubts

    And legally it doesnt matter what the ATF tells you on the telephone although it wouldnt be a bad idea to call them but if they are wrong you pay the price.

    Several people misquoted the law above --

    What they should have said- dealt with a licencee to licencee tranaction for buisness purposes

    "May a licensee continue to deliver to a business whose license has expired?
    Yes, for a period of 45 days following the expiration date of the license. After the 45-day period, the transferor is required to verify the licensed status of the transferee with the Chief, Firearms Licensing Center. If the transferee’s license renewal application is still pending, the transferor must obtain evidence from the Director of Industry Operations that a license renewal application has been timely filed by the transferee and is still pending."

    That means if you arent a licencee that rule doesnt apply to you either coming or going with one rare exception we wont get into here

    Here is the actual written rule/law but understand that this isnt the only law because there is further case law on this topic

    Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco Products, and Firearms

    CHAPTER II: BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

    SUBCHAPTER B: FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

    PART 478: COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

    Subpart F: Conduct of Business

    478.94 - Sales or deliveries between licensees.A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multilicensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee's license.

    Find another FFL or get a lawyer on contingency that does federal criminal felony work.

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  20. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    If the FFL has a freshly expired license and the ATF isjust running behind, the ATF will fax him an extension letter. The FFL can fax the extension letter to anyone he feels needs that info. My local guy is in that boat right now. If any doubt, have him fax you a copy of that letter. Being as the ATF has the power to make a persons life a living hell, even if they did nothing wrong, I would not be taking any chances. Good Luck
     
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