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watch your butt at gun shows

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Beni, Dec 2, 2011.

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  1. Beni

    Beni Member

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    Local news reported today a big crackdown at gun shows. Seems the ATF sent spies around to buy guns without going throuh the NIC's check. They were sucessful as 2 dealers got busted and 4 customers,all for not going through the NIC"s check. I believe the charge is a mistomeaner. This is not what we need in New york,the attorney general and his cronies have been waiting for this to happen. To bad the dumb ass dealers didnt follow through, probably more to come .......... beni
     
  2. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    If its a legit operation, and the dealers were not operating within the guidelines of federal law, I have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever.
     
  3. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Skeetman,follow the law and you will have no problem.Jerry
     
  4. Beni

    Beni Member

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    I agree the dealers know up front that every gun tranaction first starts with a NICs check. It becomes fuel for the anti gunners in albany. beni
     
  5. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    We don't need any firearms dealers like that. Those are the exact idiots that give us law abiding gun owners a bad name. Throw the book at 'em in my opinion........
     
  6. Beni

    Beni Member

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    I believe 4 customers got it to. their purchases never went through the check,not sure if these were parking lot sales or not beni
     
  7. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    ALBANY -- Undercover investigators were able to buy an assortment of semiautomatic rifles at gun shows in Western New York and elsewhere across the state without the required criminal background checks -- even after telling merchants they had domestic-violence histories, officials said Wednesday.


    "This is a serious matter of public safety," said Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, whose office conducted the stings over the past eight months.


    "The worst-kept secret in America is that guns are freely available at gun shows," he said.


    Dan Kowalczewski, of Cheektowaga, and William Smith, of Corfu, were among 10 dealers charged Wednesday with illegal gun sales for failing to conduct criminal background checks. They face misdemeanors, the most serious penalty under current law.


    The attorney general said he is working with legislators to strengthen penalties against gun dealers who fail to perform the required background check to prevent gun sales to individuals with certain criminal backgrounds, mental illness histories or current domestic-violence orders of protection.


    Also targeted are the operators of the gun shows, including one held May 14 at the Hamburg Fairgrounds and one held June 19 in Alexander in Genesee County, both of which were part of the sting operations. Schneiderman said he wants operators to be criminally liable for illegal gun sales at their shows -- dozens of which occur around the state each year.


    "These are the folks who profit from the gun sales and the gun shows, and are in the best position to see that the laws are enforced," Schneiderman said.


    Officials identified the operators of the Hamburg gun show as James Buck, of Frewsburg, and Niagara Frontier Collectors, of Akron. Calls to Buck and another individual identified as a contact for the Akron company were not returned.


    Sellers at gun shows, according to a 2000 state law, must conduct a criminal background check, which involves inputting information about a buyer into a federal background system via computer or a toll-free number. The check can be done within minutes.


    The attorney general released transcripts of audio and video from the different shows, depicting what he described as a cynical attitude by gun sellers. When one undercover investigator asked how he could purchase a gun when his estranged wife had an order of protection against him for domestic violence, a dealer said, laughing, "Go to gun shows and pick them up."


    Another specifically asked if he needed a background check to buy a gun. "No, it's from me to you," a dealer told him.


    "I can sell it to you, and you can give it to him," another dealer told one agent when his partner told the dealer he couldn't pass a background check because of a domestic-violence incident involving his wife.


    The head of a gun owners rights group said Schneiderman had a long history of trying to strengthen gun control laws in New York when he served in the State Senate. Budd Schroeder, chairman of the Shooters Committee on Political Education, said Schneiderman was one of the "worst anti-gun legislators" in Albany.


    "Most bureaucrats and heads of departments are looking for ways to justify their existence, whether there's a problem or not, to get publicity. It doesn't matter if it's accurate or beneficial as long as they get their names in the paper and the perception that they are doing something," Schroeder said.


    The gun rights proponent said he has attended many gun shows over the years and witnessed security guards at all of them who prevent buyers from leaving the facility without proof that they have gone through a background check.


    "He is so prejudiced against the private ownership of guns that he'll do anything to make it difficult to obtain them," Schroeder said of Schneiderman. "Criminals don't follow laws. If they want to get a gun, they don't have to go to a gun show."


    The two local dealers charged Wednesday could not be reached to comment.


    While the attorney general said he wants to strengthen laws governing gun show sales, he did not specifically respond to a question about whether he supports broader bans on gun sales.


    Gun control groups were quick to back Schneiderman's calls for stronger penalties against dealers who do not perform mandatory background checks.


    "When gun sellers don't follow the law, anyone can buy a gun at a gun show, including terrorists, convicted criminals or the mentally ill, and the result is that no one is safe from the threat of gun violence," said Jackie Hilly, executive director of the New Yorkers Against Gun Violence.


    The attorney general's office would only release selected portions of audio transcripts of the sting operations, and declined to make public video tapes or to reveal the identification of specific sellers recorded on the audio tapes.


    The purchased guns, put on display by Schneiderman outside his Capitol office, included AR-15 assault rifles, a semiautomatic rifle from the Czech Republic, a U.S. military rifle and several other styles of rifles.


    "This is clearly pointing to a flaw in our laws [and] problems with enforcement," the attorney general said.


    The conversations recorded by his undercover agents, Schneiderman said, indicate that the problem of sellers not conducting background checks "is not an unusual occurrence."


    The attorney general said the law has essentially become "an honor system" for gun dealers at shows. He sent cease and desist orders to gun show operators as warnings about running events in which guns are sold without background checks.


    The state's business law requires all gun buyers at gun shows to undergo a National Instant Criminal Background check. Such individuals as those convicted of felonies, or adjudicated to be "mental defective" or being an illegal immigrant are banned from gun purchases under federal law.


    The sting operations included visits to gun shows in Erie, Genesee, Saratoga, Schoharie, Suffolk and Washington counties. The attorney general said each gun show visited had cases where agents were able to buy guns without undergoing background checks.
     
  8. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    grntitan, quote: <i>"We don't need any firearms dealers like that. Those are the exact idiots that give us law abiding gun owners a bad name. Throw the book at 'em in my opinion........"</i>

    Absolutely right. Those jackasses just got us the very negative news story above that WILL BE USED AGAINST US for pushing Obama's and Holder's Fast and Furious gun restriction and gun ban legislation, and help Diane Fineswine's national gun registry legislation.

    Crappy dealers like that are not our friends.
     
  9. TALLEND

    TALLEND Member

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    First,Hr Hitler said we need to curb crime---so he satrted the "NCIS" check---

    then he convinces the ignorant that they need to make examples of those that

    dont obey the "NCIS"rules--------then he told the public how horrible it was


    that someone was buying a GUN without GOVERNMENT REGULATION,and something had

    to be done"to protect the innocent"--so he passed new laws to "PLUG the GUN


    SHOW LOOPHOLE'------then it became illegal to trade with a friend,give to a


    son or father-------they they took ALL gun rights away,"to protect the


    innocent"---they they became slaves,and were slautered with no way to defend themselves

    Get your head out of your XXX and see what is really happening---------Here in

    Indiana is is still legal to sell your own PERSONAL FIREARMS--as long as you

    are "not engaged in the business"(you dont depend on firearms as a living)

    You OBAMA coolaid drinkers had better realize where all these "protective"gun

    laws are heading-----------TOTAL CONFISCATION
     
  10. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    TALLEND, please show me where in the law it says a gun dealer (FFL) has the option to sell guns without a 4473 and a background check?
     
  11. warpspeed

    warpspeed Member

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    Brian,

    What Tallend is saying is that we cannot allow the government to use this example of FFL dealers not following the law as an excuse to limit our 2nd Amendment rights.

    He never said what they did was OK.
     
  12. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    The dealers may have not been FFL holders. Just buying a table....
     
  13. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Perfectly legal in my state to go to a flea market, rent a table and lay down 1/2 dozen more or less rifles or shotguns and sell them, providing you don't sell to a minor, out of state person, or known person who is not allowed to possess firearms. Flea markets every Mon. Wed. and Sun. within a 30 mile radius. I go to one just about every Mon. and you will see as many as 4 people selling guns.
     
  14. TinMan88

    TinMan88 TS Member

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    And how did the ATF act when they pushed legitimate dealers to follow an agenda rather than the law? They queered the ncis check.- Then blamed the dealers.

    I ask the question, Who at ncis knew the dog wouldn't bite. They are not in Arizona!
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    From the news story: <i>"The attorney general said he is working with legislators to strengthen penalties against gun dealers who fail to perform the required background check to prevent gun sales to individuals with certain criminal backgrounds, mental illness histories or current domestic-violence orders of protection."</i> And notice: <i>"The two local dealers charged Wednesday could not be reached to comment."</i>

    A gun dealer is someone in the business of selling guns who is licensed to do so.

    And: <i>"Sellers at gun shows, according to a 2000 state law, must conduct a criminal background check, which involves inputting information about a buyer into a federal background system via computer or a toll-free number. The check can be done within minutes."</i> Also: <i>"The state's business law requires all gun buyers at gun shows to undergo a National Instant Criminal Background check. Such individuals as those convicted of felonies, or adjudicated to be "mental defective" or being an illegal immigrant are banned from gun purchases under federal law."</i>

    State law there says all gun show sales must have a background check. So dealers or not, it's a moot point. Gun show sales MUST have a background check no matter if you are a dealer or an unlicensed seller. (We got saddled with the same thing in Oregon.)

    And this: <i>""I can sell it to you, and you can give it to him," another dealer told one agent when his partner told the dealer he couldn't pass a background check because of a domestic-violence incident involving his wife."</i>

    Unlawful straw sale in violation of federal law.

    This is interesting: <i>"The gun rights proponent said he has attended many gun shows over the years and witnessed security guards at all of them who prevent buyers from leaving the facility without proof that they have gone through a background check."</i>

    So was this in effect at this particular gunshow? Has anyone witnessed security guards actually doing this?

    This part is disturbing: <i>"Schneiderman said he wants operators to be criminally liable for illegal gun sales at their shows -- dozens of which occur around the state each year."</i>

    This would make gun show operators criminally liable for the actions of dealers and sellers who break the law. No one should be held liable for the criminal actions of others.
     
  16. TinMan88

    TinMan88 TS Member

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    Sweet! Now they could make Brian Mulally liable for billy bob drivin his wife's taurus into a phone pole. GGrrrr!
     
  17. ccw1911

    ccw1911 Member

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    If an individual is making a private sale how does he legally run a background check? Is this a case of a requirement without any way of meeting it? I know this is not a Federal requirement but it is something the anti's are pushing as a backdoor way of eliminating gun shows and private gun sales in general. This case sounds like private sales otherwise there would be Federal charges which aren't misdemeanors. I agree the law is the law and must be obeyed, just think about the commerce between individuals that goes on at most trap shoots.

    quote
    "These (the people putting on the gun shows) are the folks who profit from the gun sales and the gun shows, and are in the best position to see that the laws are enforced,"

    If that's not a load of crap I don't know what is. People hosting a gun show are liable for enforcing gun control laws? Couldn't be any clearer that this is just a way to shut down gun shows.
     
  18. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    ONLY FREE PEOPLE CAN OWN WEAPONS.

    North Koreans and Iranian citizens can not.

    Here we go.

    HM
     
  19. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    This is an obvious problem in the state of New York. I suggest that the NRA send their two most infulential and "sane" peolple to New York to take care of the problem, Wayne LaPiere and Ted Nugent!

    blade819
     
  20. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    CCW1911

    The answer to your first question is that in NY, there are NO "private sales" at a gun show (at least legally). Everything is subject to the NICS and they have it set up so the NICS is available to all. In addition, better watch out on what a "gun show" is, some of Toolmaker's flea markets could be "gun shows" here, depending on how many guns are there.
     
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