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Vintage versus New Trap Shotgun

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by bluedsteel, May 29, 2010.

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  1. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    I would be interested in hearing from trap shooters who use or have used vintage trap shotguns in registered ATA competition. By vintage trap shotguns, I am referring to Ithaca 4E's, 5E's, Knicks, Parker SCs, LC Smith Crown Trap guns, and I would include Winchester Model 21 Trap shotguns in the mix.

    How did these older shotguns hold up? Did you feel that you were at a disadvantage to say, Krieghoff K-80 or Perazzi MX shooters? Or even modern Beretta and Browning shooters?

    Was recoil a problem? Did you experience breakages or failures on the line? Did the lack of an adjustable comb or rib create a gun-fit problem for you?

    How did your score compare if/when you changed to a more modern trap shotgun?

    Thanks for sharing any personal experiences.

    bluedsteel
     
  2. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Write to Bill Grill and ask him.
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I'd say a fitted stock (to you) is way more important than the maker of the gun whether it be new or old. How many shots could one fire with any shotgun you mentioned and not miss till it was the guns fault?

    Hap
     
  4. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    I bet if the gun shoots where you look and doesn't "beat up" on the shooter and has a trigger appropriate for that shooter, what's the difference with what's in front of the eyes? This also assumes that the barrel throws a pattern that is a typical "good one" for trap shooting from the 16-27. The rest of the stuff, I'd guess, just might be trivial.

    But...I may be very wrong?
     
  5. OLD ONE EYE

    OLD ONE EYE Well-Known Member

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    This is a good post for debate the old Ithaca and Parkers are as good as any made in my opinion and have stood the test of time and have a beauty all their own. If you have one that you can shoot well that is all the gun you will need. The other side is the Seitz and Afferman type guns are made of modern metals modern design faster triggers and will most likely out last the older guns based on the better metal now and the ability of holding tolerances so much tighter using CAD cam computers in manufacturing them. I like the newer guns but when I hold one of the older guns I get a feeling I do not have for the newer guns. I shoot a newer gun by choice but have some of the older guns for the change of pace shooting but feel the newer guns are superior for the Trap game. With that said I have seen many a hi end gun go home empty after a shootoff with a guy with a old 870 in his hands.
    Buddy
     
  6. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    The problem with shooting old betsy is getting parts to fix it up again when it breaks. Unless you are talking about an occasional afternoon shooting a couple of boxes of shells, the old guns are not going to take the pounding of competition. Out here, we are starting the state shoot cycle, De, NJ, Pa, Md, and then Va. Lots and lots of shells to shoot. sooner or later, whatever you are shooting is going to have a breakdown. I can get parts (and gunsmithing service if necessary) for my competition guns. I don't know about getting a Parker or Smith fixed.

    I once took a Model 86 Win out to hunt for its 100th birthday but I did not try to shoot it thousands of times either.
     
  7. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    Interesting comments so far. To clarify, I was NOT putting these vintage trap guns in the same class as some of the modern lower-end guns, in reference to "what's the difference in front of the eyes", or "way more important than the maker of the gun". These vintage trap guns (granted, some were made into the 1980's) were expensive in their day, sort of the Perazzis and Krieghoffs of their era, and they are still impressive looking guns, with striking engraving and beautiful wood...nothing to be ashamed of, that is for sure.

    But I am interested in how they would hold up to years of the "typical 300 target event"... (or at least 200 target-day, since they wouldn't be suitable for doubles, in most cases).

    The comments regarding the fact that new guns are constructed of better metals, and are made to closer tolerances certainly have much merit, as well as who is going to repair the gun WHEN it breaks. Good points.

    I would sure be interested in hearing from someone who actually uses one of these as their primary registered gun, and who shoots a lot. But, that person may not exist, for the reasons mentioned earlier.

    bluedsteel
     
  8. Mapper

    Mapper Member

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    Good Lord, I don't have a trap gun that was made since the Viet Nam war started. I don't shoot much registered trap these days, since I can't hit my butt with both hands, but my two 1919 Ithaca SBTs have been used in registered targets in the past, as has my nickle steel model 12. I had to take one single apart to clean out some shot pellets from a misloading mishap, but otherwise they all have given no trouble. I suppose I shoot the one single 2000 times a year. My 31T and the model 12 have never failed me, nor has my current K32.
     
  9. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    As Rick said above, unavailability of spare parts is mostly a side-step.

    Those guns are all boxlocks: either A&D or Greener, and have 5 parts in the lock. Any blacksmith can make any part needed ... and damn few are ever needed.

    My #1 quail gun was made in 1753, and when it broke a frizzen spring, I made one out of a nail-file. My goose gun is side-lever Manton, made in 1876, and was a market-hunter in Eastern shore Maryland, and I replaced it's broken firing pins out of hand-filed drill rod. (the ones I replaced were horseshoe nails, so mine were a step up, anyhow)

    Tolerances for their own sake can be fun to discuss, but as a practical matter, if the sear releases, the bird is dead or lost - depending on where you're pointing. Doug Braker works on a lot of Brit guns, and will confirm that even Purdey and Boss innards are not to be confused with Rolex-like tolerances of Kreighoff, Blazer, Perazzi, or even Rizzini, etc...

    Durable? Look at the hundreds of thousands of 1¼oz 3¼dr shells Col Bogardus, et.al. fired annually around the turn of the century in their Greener and Parker boxlocks.

    One BIG difference in springs then and springs now, is that now all springs are cast, and have a cycle-expectancy of 10,000±. In the days when ships were wood and men were iron, springs were forged and a broken spring was rare and noteworthy ... and usually faster than you can get from any casting.

    Today's choice is: fashion, 'ccoutrements & gizmos - not 'quality', per se. If you shoot a BT-99 low-rib, crawled forward on a 1¼" DAC, whatever scores you should would be duplicated with a 5E.

    Bob
     
  10. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The Remington 870 is going on 60 years old now, and the 1100 is 47 years old. If they're not "vintage" then surely they are "classics".
     
  11. Bushmaster1313

    Bushmaster1313 Well-Known Member

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    Unlike many, but like a few, I am more interested in the guns and the shooting than my score.

    To me there is nothing more fun in trap than hitting a bird with a magnificent trap gun made in the 1910's or 1920's.

    If I miss a few birds each round it only makes the ones I hit more satisfying!
     
  12. 12Gagejon

    12Gagejon Member

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    You mean they don't have a Parker or Smith tent at the "new"Grand? Guess its been a few years since I was there,they still shoot glass ball don't they?



    LOL Jon
     
  13. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

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    Todays trapguns,with all the bells & whistles are probably superior to the old time Guns. I feel the modern shell has helped shooters more than the modern gun. With the older simple trap guns,you got one that fit you and knew where it shot. You did not have to carry a tool kit to set all your adjustments. Your adjustable gun of today will play a lot of mind games with you. Is my comb set right? The wind kicked up,gotta change my Point of impact. Set this,change that,no end to it. The old guns,you opened the action inserted shell and shot it. Pretty simple,no mind games. Todays shooter shoots many more rounds with harder shot, superior shells. Many more shooters shooting more rounds produces higher scores. Leo H. shot a simple gun fairly good. Dan Orlich's average of .9982 on 2850 targets in 1968 with a simple gun wasn't too bad either. High dollar fancy guns seldom make a champion shooter. Just give me 1 adjustment, the comb. Just my 60 + years observation. 1oldtimer
     
  14. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Probably best to define a "vintage gun" to the date of the original action. Which would include many others including Superposed shotguns introduced in '31.
     
  15. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    I have been shooting and competing with my vintage 1926 model 12 for forty years. I had Timney rebuild it in around 1970 when he first developed the procedure.

    Since then I have had a couple hammer springs replaced as they got weak
    Installed on ejector and have Stu Wright check it ocassionally.

    I have newer trap guns but I don't shoot them any better.

    The main thing is to have them fit you.

    ed
     
  16. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Bluesteel,

    I shoot a 4e for all my 16 yard targets. 96.44 average last year, you guys can look it up William R. Grill. That said I use a different gun 90T for handi-cap. I dont know if I could take the poundind that 4e would deal out with Rem-nitro's,which is what I shoot at handi-cap. Also I shot most of last years doubles with a Ithaca 5e sxs. If you want to talk call me at 1-906-869-9959 in the eves. Also have Parker,Fox,L.c Smith,Charles Daly ect. most of them pre war guns. Bill
     
  17. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    It's kinda cool shooting with Bill and his Ithaca's. It' would be fun to get a squad together for Vintage Singles... lol
     
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