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Used 'B' or New Stoeger/Baikal/Miroku

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by rohitdean, Jul 18, 2007.

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  1. rohitdean

    rohitdean TS Member

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    Hi All,
    I have got some good advise from people on this site so I plan to ask the age old question but with a different twist.

    Hypothetical Question:
    If a budget minded person wants to get a second gun dedicated for trap - Singles, Doubles and Handicap in which they are planning to shoot on average 100 shells per week (5200 per year - including competitions) what are the pros and cons of buying a used 'B' vs. a new Stoeger/Baikal(Remington-ISP)/Miroku(Charles Daly)?

    It would be preferable if people who actually own some of the brands came forward with their experiences to help this "hypothetical" budget minded person.

    Thanks
    Rohit
     
  2. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    The Miroku is a sturdy gun and competively priced.They feel very much like a Citori.

    Darr Wilson
     
  3. SShooterZ

    SShooterZ Member

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    Miroku (Charles Daly) is not even in the same ballpark as the Stoeger and Baikal. It's like comparing a Cadillac to a Civic/Corolla.

    Well made, shoot FOREVER, handle great... Just excellent well made guns.

    I don't own a Stoeger or Baikal and there's a reason for that.
     
  4. Big Dave

    Big Dave Member

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    Miroku makes Brownings Citoris and BT-99s and possibly others, but I would go with the Browning because of the availability of parts and servive if either/both should become necessary. The Baikals, I have owned several, are rough in both fit and finish, and kick like a rabid mule.
     
  5. rohitdean

    rohitdean TS Member

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    Thanks all for responding.

    SShooterZ,
    My bad! I meant to put "Charles Daly" (and not "Charles Daly branded Miroku") in the same ballpark as Stoeger and "Remington Spartan branded Baikal" but seeing that Charles Daly Firearms do not sell any Trap/Competition Guns anymore, they cannot be compared.

    Have you shot the Stoeger Condor Competition or know someone who has?

    Darr,
    When you say competitively priced for Miroku, are you talking about Charles Daly as it is now or used Charles Daly branded Miroku.

    Big Dave,
    I have heard good things about the BT-99s from one of my colleagues who has owned one for sometime now. Is your comment about the Baikals for the Remington Spartan branded Baikal or THE Baikal?

    Thanks
    Rohit
     
  6. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I tried for ever to actually touch the Condor Competition, couldnt find one. Im convinced a used citori trap will out last and out shoot your other options.
     
  7. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    From what i found when looking for my first trap gun. Believe me i searched all the avenues. Miroku shot guns are basically the uro/asian name for a citori. They are very simular. Heres a web site i came across doing my research. By the way I ended up buying a used browning Ultra XT with adjustable comb and americase plus a few chokes.
     
  8. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Tell me these are not citori's.
     
  9. rohitdean

    rohitdean TS Member

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    MACLELLAN1911,
    Miroku=Citori! Also, I read through Stoeger's forum posts and the current owners son't seem too happy with the model 2000 autos and the Condor Supreme. I couldn't find any posts for the Condor Competition though. This could mean one of two things - either no one is buying it or it is a great quality gun with no problems whatsoever. Based on the rants I read on their forum about the Condor Supreme and Model 2000, I think it is the former. I am going to save some more money and limit my search to used Brownings - Citori or BT.

    Thanks for all your inputs. I will keep monitoring this thread to see if some other users may want to expand the discussion to other brands in the same price range.

    Thanks
    Rohit
     
  10. Big Dave

    Big Dave Member

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  11. rohitdean

    rohitdean TS Member

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    Big Dave,
    I guess you get what you pay for when it comes to budget guns. Actually, $300+ is not exactly "budget" but relatively speaking it is. I have been shooting trap for almost a month now and realized that my field gun - a Remington 870 Express Super Magnum, while a great field gun is not the ideal tool for trap for the following reasons:

    1. The stock doesn't fit me!!! Even though I have to bring my head down (bad habit) to the stock while hunting with it, the same doesn't work when you have to shoot 25 shells in a short span of time. That bad form puts a strain on my neck. I figure an adjustable comb will help there.

    2. The gun kicks like a mule. Pair that with the bad form of bringing my head down, that can cause a substantial cheek slap causing flinching and hence my tendency to move my head away from the stock at the last second before pulling the trigger.

    3. Last but not least, when I really get into it, I will probably have to practice shooting 1 round of singles, 1 round of handicap and 1 round of doubles per week. That's 100 shells!!! Cycling that in a pump gun would put unneccesary strain on the arms and hence my leaning toward a break action.

    Thanks for all who are helping me with this decision making process.

    Rohit
     
  12. Dale Z

    Dale Z TS Member

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    Last fall I purchased a Stoeger Condor for shooting trap. Did not have a gun for doubles and ran across one reasonably priced so decided to give it a try. I shot it for all events. Put over 7500 rounds through it in 6 months. Never a problem however I did have the auto safety removed as my thumb was getting sore. If you are looking for a starter gun without wiping out your pocket book, try the condor it has produced for me several wins and championships at major shoots. I am proud of my Stoeger!!!

    Dale
     
  13. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    I have shot and seen many Miroku brand shotguns.I don't remember the model #.But I have shot an O/U trap model that looked just like a citori.Nice gun.I have seen used Miroku trap models for sale in the $700.00 to 800.00 range.I wouldn,t hesitate to buy one if the price was right.I think they are much better built than the other guns you mentioned.The Mirokus I am talking about were sold under that name.I think they were pre Charles Daly Miroku but I am not positive.

    Darr Wilson
     
  14. Clay Addict

    Clay Addict Member

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    I have two Charles Daly Superior Trap that are Miroku. I have had both of these guns for over 30 years and they are a quality gun. I still shoot them for doubles. I was shooting a M12 but doubles started to become work so I was, as you are, looking for a fair priced o/u. My old coach/friend found me a Daly for $300.00 and I have never regreted getting it. My M12 went to the back of the safe and the Daly was in the front. This year I have been trying to get comfortable with my Kgun but the Daly is still a better handler on doubles for me at this time. I retired my Daly as a singles gun when I acquired a K80. I have shot tens of thousands of rounds thru the Dalys and they are as good as ever. New Dalys are not the same quality in my opinion and I do not know if they even offer the Superior model. If you find a good old Daly Superioir in your price range, try it out and if you like it, buy it. There will be a few on the shelves at the Grand along with a few on the line too. I will probably still be shooting doubles with mine this year at the Grand.

    I saw a young man that had tubes put in his old style Daly along with an adjustable pad. Made a good looking clay busting machine.

    Loading shells, and thinking of getting packed for the trip to sunny Sparta. Good friends, food, and times are ahead.
    Hope to see you there.
    CA
     
  15. rohitdean

    rohitdean TS Member

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    Dale,
    Was it the field grade Condor or the Competition? I have heard that the Competition model does not have the auto safety.

    Darr and CA,
    I have heard good things about the Mirokus. Browning wouldn't be associated with them if they weren't any good. I will keep looking on Gunbroker and let my friendly neighborhood gun store know my requirements.

    Thanks
    Rohit
     
  16. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Shawnee, Kansas, USA
    rohitdean

    If you get the standard Condor, and want to know how to disble the auto-safety, I have a set of instructions. Its easy to do.

    Terrible triggers, though.

    I have one I use for upland game hunting.
     
  17. rohitdean

    rohitdean TS Member

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    Timb99,
    Good to know! I was leaning towards a used Citori/Miroku until Dale came forward with his experience with the Stoeger Condor. Now I am back on the fence. I guess I have more research to do.

    Thanks
    Rohit
     
  18. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    Used Beretta or a new Baikal????

    Have to be a pretty used up Beretta to make it even a semi-tough decision.
     
  19. acre44

    acre44 Member

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    Why all the busting on the Baikal/Remington Spartan in this thread? When I decided to start trap shooting, I wanted a good inexpensive gun to get started and eventually if I decided to stay in the game I would upgrade. I bought the Baikal Sporting O/U with 29.5" barrels and the nickel receiver. I added some extended chokes to it and an adjustable butt to fit me. I have won a few events in a very short period of time with this gun. It shoots very well and I easily have over 20,000 rounds through it without a problem. You cannot beat it for a $500 gun, brand new. As far as the "kick", that is a laugh. If you can't take the "kick" then don't shoot or start lifting weights and toughen up. Problem with buying a used gun is how many times has it been fired? shot out? why did the person get rid of it? were they having problems with it? Make sure you ask yourself those questions before you spend that $2,500.

    Have a nice night kid,
    Todd.
     
  20. Dale Z

    Dale Z TS Member

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    rohitdean

    It is the standard Condor model. No selective triggers or adjustable comb. However it has worked great for me the past 8 months, without tearing such a deep hole in my pocket. As other threads have said "its not the ammo or the gun, it's the shooter". Unless you have full pockets and plan to get into the game and stay in it for a long time a less expensive gun can provide "thousands of targets" fun. I purchased a less expensive gun so I could shoot more. More targets, more events, more bullets. Have shot over 9000 targets since last Sept. 7400 registered targets. Having a great time......

    Dale
     
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