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Understanding 'Stand Your Ground' WSJ

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by mrskeet410, Apr 18, 2012.

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  1. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Understanding

    "The shooting of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman has spurred national outrage over Florida's Stand Your Ground law. Unfortunately, the discussion of this law has been marred by misinformation. Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst, erroneously claimed that the law "allows a disproportionate response; if someone comes at you with a fist, you can reply with a gun."

    Many have asserted that in Florida anyone who believes he is in danger can use deadly force, no matter how unreasonable his belief. These perceptions of the law are wrong. As compared with other states, Florida's Stand Your Ground law is neither extreme nor an outlier.

    In Florida, as in most states, a person claiming self-defense must show that he (1) reasonably believed that such force was (2) necessary to protect himself against (3) the imminent and (4) unlawful use of force by another. The person claiming self-defense usually cannot be the initial aggressor. And to use deadly force in Florida, as Mr. Zimmerman did, a person must also reasonably believe that the aggressor threatened him with death, great bodily injury, or intended to commit a forcible felony (e.g., rape, robbery or kidnapping).

    In short, under Florida's Stand Your Ground law, Mr. Zimmerman now must show that an average person in his circumstances would have viewed the Skittle-armed Martin as a mortal threat...

    This is not to say that eliminating the retreat requirement has no drawbacks. Eliminating the duty to retreat often makes it difficult to prosecute cases involving shady self-defense claims—such as bar fights and gang conflicts—when both parties should have simply walked away. Prosecutors have an easier time proving that a combatant could have safely withdrawn than they do convincing juries, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the person did not reasonably believe that he was in danger.

    Now that prosecutors have charged Mr. Zimmerman, they will face a similar challenge. Mr. Zimmerman had called 911, and the dispatcher instructed Mr. Zimmerman not to pursue Martin. Had Mr. Zimmerman complied, no one would have been hurt. Before Stand Your Ground, prosecutors could have relied on Mr. Zimmerman's opportunity to retreat in order to help rebut his claim of self-defense...

    Nevertheless, even with Florida's Stand Your Ground law, Mr. Zimmerman will have difficulty asserting a successful self-defense claim. Stand Your Ground laws do not affect most basic requirements of pleading self-defense. Individuals using lethal force in self-defense must reasonably believe that they are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury—in other words, an average person, given the facts as Mr. Zimmerman knew them, would have reached the same inferences about the danger Martin posed and the necessity of using deadly force to avoid it. Mr. Zimmerman's mere honest beliefs will not suffice...

    ..Nor does the Stand Your Ground law permit individuals to use disproportionate force in self-defense. Mr. Zimmerman must demonstrate that he reasonably feared that Martin was going to kill him, cause great bodily injury (e.g., permanent disfigurement), or commit a forcible felony. A few cuts and a broken nose may not rise to this level. And Mr. Zimmerman will have to show that he was not the initial aggressor..."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304432704577350010609562008.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
     
  2. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    First of all, Florida's Stand Your Ground law has not caused "national out rage". Maybe media outrage, but not national.

    Read the last sentance of your post. Like I said before, if some bozo is banging my head against the concrete and I have my legal conceal carry gun on me, I'd use it too.

    Once again you post an article that is a commentary and project it as fact so it fits you anti-gun stance.

    You should spend more time looking for a job and supporting yourself so we don't have to. You're on the wrong website. Try www.knitting.com.
     
  3. johnboy

    johnboy Member

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    Great song by Tom Petty!
     
  4. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    If Martin had knocked Zimmerman down and was hitting his head on the ground, Zimmereman could have truly believed his life was in danger. His judgement could also have been impaired after receiving a punch to the face and having his head pounded into the ground. Not knowing where or if the attack would end, Zimmerman could have fired in self defense.

    I realize that there are a lot of "ifs". However, IF Martin had punched Zimmerman and beaten his head into the ground until Zimmerman was dead, would there be any outcry against Martin? Would one TV news show have even reported it? Let's keep it simple - NO!!!!
     
  5. brett44

    brett44 Member

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    Mr. Zimmerman now must show that an average person in his circumstances would have viewed the Skittle-armed Martin as a mortal threat...

    Another biased article. The average person after having his nose broken and having his head pounded in the ground wouldn't have inquired "are you armed with Skittles" before firing.
     
  6. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Zimmerman needs to judged based on evidence not media that is looking for headlines and twisting the information. As gun owners we all must know that we can't win this, for the right to own guns for self protection or any other reason. We as a group need to down play this, and concentrate on damage control.
     
  7. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Why is it you all believe Zimmerman is telling the truth?
     
  8. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Perhaps he's honest

    Why is it that you think he's lying, he must have convinced the cops, that's why they didn't charge him until all the uproar
     
  9. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    The police dispatch, and 911 tapes. After listening to those tapes, I really do not believe Zimmerman is telling the whole truth. Now that the defense has asked for the case to be sealed, I am not sure we will see the evidence that the prosecution has when the defense asks for discovery. Even though Florida is an open court State, I hope that they close this trial from the public, and the media.
     
  10. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    I hope it is televised.
     
  11. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    Since the liberal douche nozzles have pronounced Zimmerman guilty, the state of Florida can save the money a trial would cost and just lynch him. They, and they alone, have all the evidence they need so no point in wasting any more time with trials.
     
  12. typhoon

    typhoon TS Member

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    The tone of the WSJ article does show some bias, but overall, I think it's a good explanation of the law. George will now get a trial by a jury of his peers that will hear all the available evidence, much of it has now been sealed by the court so as not to further prejudice any potential juries or intimidate potential witnesses.

    We're not going to solve it here, neither is the media in the court of public opinion.
     
  13. brett44

    brett44 Member

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    Well, the Sanford police, for one, believed Zimmerman's story, and they have access to more evidence than we do. I'm guessing Styl believes Zimmerman either had no injuries or was injured before the encounter. The EMTs will verifying the extent of his injuries. If Zimmerman had no injuries or a witness comes forward to testify that Zimmerman swung first, then this a simple case of self defense.

    Trayvon knew he was inside a gated community and not walking around on the south side of Chicago. Trayvon knew Zimmerman had his vehicle inside the gated community and was either a resident or a guest. Trayvon had no reason to fear Zimmerman unless he was, in fact, up to no good.

    The 911 tapes indicate that Trayvon had plenty of time to simply go home, but instead hung around to give Zimmerman some attitude. Poor judgement on Trayvon's part cost him his life and ruined the life of another. Lesson to be learned here is to never pick a fight with a person carrying a gun.
     
  14. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Yep, don't bring a bag of Skittles to a gunfight. Lesson learned.

    GneJ
     
  15. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Don't attack people who are observing your suspicious activity.
     
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