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Two hole targets, When?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by VNVET, Jun 25, 2010.

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  1. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    Can someone tell me when the ATA changed to the so called "Two Hole" target. I have been told this was a gradual change as clubs started throwing the "Two Hole" for registered events and the ATA gradually accepted the practice. I'd like to know how this came about.

    Jim
     
  2. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Three hole targets were harder to hit due to the wider angles. Shooters didn't like not shooting higher scores and I believe attendence fell off at major shoots. Moving to the narrower angle 2 hole target solved that problem. I'm not sure but I think 2 hole became the standard in the late 70's-early 80's.

    Eric
     
  3. JTEA

    JTEA Member

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    In was told it was changed by the ATA last year. I think it was, perhaps, a decision based on the thought that they are easier to shoot and therefore more shooters will be pleased at the end of the day. With the economy and aging population of shooters, clubs are working to get everyone they can to continue to participate.

    The first time was in the mid-nineties, some clubs such as Oxford, PA continued with three hole. (before auto-traps and way before voice pullers) Other periods allowed minimum two to maximum three hole range. Shooters attended clubs based on targets they preferred. South End GC in Reading, PA was known for having "proper" fast and wide targets which were always flying steady and high enough to see.

    Some clubs are now throwing slower (45 yard) targets - I guess for the same thoughts. I find them more inconsistent and prone to wind variables.


    JT
     
  4. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    The ATA 2009 Rule Book states a min. and a max. angle which I believe is the equal to two hole and three hole targets. The Min angle from center is 17 deg. with an additional 10 deg for the max. angle. In my 1977 ATA Rule book the min. angle from center is 22 deg. with an additional 25 deg. for the max angle. Another note of interest is in 1977 the target height was 8 to 12 ft at 10 yds out. Today the height is 8 to 10 ft. Quite a difference then and now.

    So it would appear that this change to a soft target didn't happen overnight and was iniated by the clubs to improve scores and attendance and gradually became the norm.

    I am in awe when I look at some of the scores and records from some of the Hall of Famers from the 70's and 80's when targets were much more difficult. Dan Bonillas comes to mind.

    Jim
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    VNVET, it began as a cheating way of enticing potential All-Americans an easier way of getting more points. Far easier than clubs adhering to the old setting standards of a more difficult target. Some say this cheating began in the very late 70s but I saw it first in 1981 at a western club. It certainly was an unfair practice to those clubs adhering to the old standards shooting a tougher angle and longer target too. This cheating cancer spread like wildfire across the nation by clubs wanting to survive by attracting their share of shooters! ATA officials adopted this cheating practice as being good for ATA members but the numbers don't prove that move is fact. What it did do is skew our historical records set by the old timers though shooting in much more difficult target presentations! What our illustrious leaders did was take away the perceived notion that most had, was a chance of shooting a less than perfect score and winning/placing or showing in all events. They destroyed the games perception by looking for more perfection. We had only one leader that fought a losing battle for the sports integrity that worked so well for many years till cheating the old system was best for our organization.

    I expect the "change" engineers will be along shortly espousing how much better off our organization is now due to their great efforts to change history.

    Hap
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The change occurred over time beginning around 1982 and by 1990 most clubs were throwing two hole targets. Clubs that threw two hole birds attracted more shooters than those throwing three hole targets. Lower attendance is the only thing that keeps clubs from now throwing three hole targets. They are still legal.

    There is absolutely no way to determine if this change helped or hurt shooter numbers overall because we do not know what our shooter numbers would be today if the change had not been made. If we had retained three hole birds, our present shooter numbers could be lower than they are now or they could be higher or they could be the same.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Pandering to a bunch of jerks that need to brag about a high score on easy targets is no different than the Bowling tournaments that blocked the lanes to have more 300's.

    Sleazy behavior. In the wayback times, a 300 was not put in the books till the lane was checked by the local PBA.

    This was the forerunner of "No Child Left Behind"

    HM
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    HM- If the targets are now so easy, why don't I break more of them.

    Russ25Trap- I remember getting punched with scores of 93 to 95. That was before voice release, adjustable combs, automatic traps, shooting clinics and this great site.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    The vast majority of todays' shooters haven't the foggiest idea what a 3-hole target is. 2-hole targets are designed to make older, well heeled shooters with various degrees of obsessive compulsive disorder and declining ability feel good about themselves again!!
     
  10. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Set 'em so we're all shooting the 70's, then see how many show up.
     
  11. ljutic231

    ljutic231 TS Member

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    If I remember correctly the two hole vs the three hole came about when Our illustrious president of the ATA was Neal Crausbay. 1995. good luck and break them all.
     
  12. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    stokinpls, my ex-wife broke her one and only 100 straight the year the 3-hole target rule was in effect. So you're telling us the 3-hole target would cause you to shoot in the 70's. If that's the case I suggest fishing might be sufficiently challenging as a sport for you!!
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    ljutic231, you might do a tad more research on the time frames before slamming the ONLY ATA President that at least tried to prevent the change to an easier target!!

    At least you had the first name correct for one that pushed hard for the easier format though.

    Hap
     
  14. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I can remember in the 70s at Martinez Gun Club, east bay region of CA, we were faced with some declining in attendance at shoots and there was much debating whether we should adjust the hand set Winchester machines to throw 2 hole birds knowing that other clubs were secretly doing the same in violation of official rules. I'll not pretend to remember whether it was done or when. I do know that we threw a record setting PITA CA State shoot in 1978 that filled the parking lots and required every square inch of 16 traps......breakemall.....Bob Dodd
     
  15. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    What BDodd said. Started west and moved eastward because of all the long run records being shattered. They also threw softer targets and higher targets giving them more face. So slower, less angle and more surface facing the oncoming shot. If it did not happen, there would be no problem with throwing a lower, faster and wider target today.

    Just the evolution of the game and I don't think it had anything to do with the sport either prospering or suffering.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    When Neal Crausbay was our President, he stated that the rule book at that time required "three hole targets". His required us to follow the rule book or change the rules. We shot three hole targets for one year and after much turmoil, the rule was changed the next year.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    Pat, What year did the rule change?

    Jim
     
  18. sxs28ga

    sxs28ga TS Member

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    Has anyone ever done any research on this - I'm not so sure that todays trap machines really throw a 2 hole target as compared to the standard handset winchester machines(where the "2 hole target" came from) - I notice alot off targets leaving the house very close to the corners on alot of feilds, with all types of trap machines - and how often do you see target setters centering a feild at a large shoot?(like never!!)anyway, what where after is consistancy, eveyone should have the opportunity to shoot the same target - at a cost off roughly 25 cents per registered target I want a good target presentation - just make em all the same 2 hole, 3 hole who cares - J Mroczka
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Today's trap machines will throw a 2-hole target if you set them to do so. For example, yesterday, in preparation for the Minnesota Zone Shoot at Beaverbrook, MN, shoot management set the six traps to throw the correct target. Most traps were close, one was way off (way too narrow - and "the one the guys like to shoot league on" according to everyone) , one was offset right (both birds) . It can be done.

    Though we always used to set the windage on Winchesters, (and some still do it on GMV's, I hear), clubs with Pat Traps virtually never do, though the G Model would seem to make it theoretically possible.

    Neil
     
  20. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    The four posts, Hap's, Bob, and Barry through Pat's have the whole story thoroughly explained. I also believe that the oscillating table of the old WW handsets threw a wider variety of targets, or a larger pecentage of the wide angles than the average auto trap out there today. JMO.
     
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