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Tucson Trap & Skeet needs your help !!!

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by grammie, Mar 31, 2007.

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  1. grammie

    grammie TS Member

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    I knew this was coming,,,well before this....

    Your're going to need "lawyers" not phone calls!!!

    The developer will have his lawyers at that meeting,,,the board will be swayed to the developer,,,,WHY???? Money!!!!

    The land as a Trap Club,,CAN NOT hope to match what that property is worth as "developed land" with houses setting on it!!!

    Even if you won a short injunction,,,,the club would eventually be forced out anyway,,,because of taxes,,, What a pity....

    AKA Grammie........
     
  2. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    The truth of the matter is the property is worth a lot more Tax revenue with houses on it than with a paved strip down the middle of it ... The developement in the area of Tucson is slowly creeping up to the national average and that will no doubt be a factor sooner or later when push comes to shove ... I'd say the absolute best Attorney money can buy would be in order to try to keep it from happening, at least temporarily ... There was an order signed by the former Governor, Jane Hull with regards to Shooting ranges the preservation of them in the State of Arizona, someone better get a hold of them and be prepared to base their existance on that bill which is now part of the States land laws ... This will be a costly defense to say the least so hopefully the club has stashed away some of the money they have been making on the Spring Grand and other shoots ... The sooner they (the Club) acts the better chance they have of getting the thing stalled in court for a longer period of time ... They need some good guideance and need it really quick ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  3. shotslinger

    shotslinger Member

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    Grammie,
    You were absolutely right - I remember your assertion regarding Tucson T&S which you had posted a little while ago. Money is the name of the game and they want the maximum yield of tax dollars which they can get...
    It's a shame though because I was thinking of relocating out to the Tucson area (Oro Valley) within the next year - but if there is not going to be any place to shoot trap, I will have to reconsider and think of possible alternatives?? I heard there is going to be quite a shooting facility going in somewhere in the Las Vegas area?? Maybe Phoenix would warrant a look as well because they have Red Mtn. and Ben Avery. Do you have any thoughts on the subject??
     
  4. grammie

    grammie TS Member

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    Yes,,,,Vegas will have a world class facility,,,,no place in America could hope to match the amenities offered in Vegas!!! But,,,nothing is free in Vegas,,,the desert is differant than Arizona,,,differant as night is too day!! You have to live there or be very familiar with it to really understand that statement...

    Phoenix will be a mega-city in the future,,,Ben Avery is expanding,,and I think a Spring Grand will be held there!!

    Red Mountain is on Indian land,,and Indian owned,,they have good management,,their shoots are well attended...As long as they turn a profit,,the club will remain...

    There is a new 18 million dollar shooting facility on the way in Buckeye,Az. thats about 20 minutes west of Phoenix,,,We don't know yet if a trap club is in the offing,,We have to wait and see...

    Flagstaff is supposed to be getting a club as well??? This one I no longer comment about because BLM and the Forest Service are involved,,So who knows on that....

    Wickenburg has a club,,,but its private,,members only,,and they do not throw ATA targets...

    There is a club in Sierra Vista,,thats about 70 miles east of Tucson,,,a bit further on in Douglas is Double Adobe,,,a club you have to shoot at if coming to Arizona,,You WILL NOT be disappointed!!!

    AKA Grammie....
     
  5. merlynstrapguns

    merlynstrapguns Well-Known Member

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    ANYONE involved with "winning", has to remember the prediction that "THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR HORSEPOWER OR FIREPOWER". If you want to win, the the best gun, engine, or ATTORNEY that is available (you can be sure that the developer knows this and has prepared well in advance) OR be preparred for SECOND PLACE (jack squatt)!!.......merlyn.....
     
  6. SoftCraft

    SoftCraft TS Member

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    What I was told as to the builder:
    1) TT&S is a privately owned club.
    2) The builder offered to build a berm between the development and TT&S. TT&S told him no.
    3) He came back and told TT&S to stuff it and increased his density to 10 per acre and low cost housing.

    As for Spring Grand and Autumn Grand:
    Tucson has been guarrented those two shoots. TT&S was given those two shoots to the new owner. (Yes TT&S is under a new owner)

    If true, TT&S shot themselves in the foot by not accepting the berm between themselves and the development. Bad decision.

    Using the legislation that grandfathered the ranges will only garranty that the physical club exists. The law suites, valid or not from people who purchase the homes in that subdivision, could bankrupt the owner just in attorney costs and court costs. Not a good situation.

    We have a new state board but don't expect a lot of changes. Some decisions were made before the elections and are not likely to be changed. I doubt that the new board will be a progressive board looking to make a lot of changes.

    BTW: The first registered shoot at Ben Avery will be 6/1 - 6/2. We need to get a good attendence to impress the Game and Fish and to help them learn how to run a shoot and shake loose any problems in their system.

    JMO

    Rich
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    When was Tucson Trap and Skeet sold ..? This is the first I have heard of it and I cannot imagine something like that would not of made the Internet news by now ..? I got a feeling that you are thinking about Casa Grande because it has been sold ... The Tucson Trap and Skeet club just happens to lay in the way of progress and we all know that it has its priority especially if enough money is attached to the deal ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  8. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Arizona Bozo


    Could you please explain your following statement?


    "He was there when the Arizona VIPs were tweaking target settings in their favor".


    I'm going to take the position that Im one of those VIPs, so please explain what I did that no one else was allowed to do. It would also help if you would sign your name.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  9. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Arizona Bozo


    This is not personal but it is a hot button issue with me and I wont let it stand unchallenged.


    In the past John tarred anyone in this state who changed the targets flight a cheater. Granted that has nothing to do with Tucson but it continues to give shooters the impression that certain people in this state don’t have to abide by the rules and that no one can make the case thats good for shooting in Arizona.


    Personally I don’t like the rule that permits any shooter to ask to have the target fight changed. I have written several times suggesting the rule be changed so the only time it can be changed is if the target does not meet the flight parameters period.


    As of right now the rule permits shooters to request such a change and anyone implying that a shooter who request and is granted a change are cheating are ignorant, pot stirrers, stupid or all three.


    If people are going to quote John Calcaterra then they should stick to things John has said that have some basis in fact. This isn’t one of them.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  10. southpark

    southpark TS Member

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    Jerry, just to play devils advocate here for a moment, grammie isn't accusing anyone of cheating in this thread. Moreover, just because many folks who ask for flights to be changed aren't cheating, doesn't mean that everyone who makes that request aren't cheating either.

    Regardless, perhaps Bozo could delete reference to those old arguments and then you could too?

    Furthermore, and more important to me, while many, many, folks on this board know my real name, for a variety of reasons, mostly professional, I would be quite distressed if my name were posted here.

    Likewise, many of us have known grammie's real name for years and years. Despite knowing we know, grammie and his wife continue to pretty much use the same aliases while posting.

    To me, that suggests it isn't because they don't want us to know who is saying what but, rather, because they don't want their names to be connected to their comments when someone "googles" them.

    Whether their reasons are professional or personal (I think more personal), I see no reason why we should not honour that decision and refrain from posting their names in these threads.

    I certainly respect, and even admire, the folks who are able to use their real names in gun-related forums without worry, but think a fellow shooter should be granted the deference of keeping their name off the interenet when requested.

    Thanks
     
  11. grammie

    grammie TS Member

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    The fact is,,,,many people think that when you use your real name,,You will be respectful,,,watch what you say,,,and temper your words,,,,Well dammit gentlemen,,,,that just ain't the way my stick floats,,,and never has been,,,I am quite and respectful,,until the time comes to not be!!! I am a competitive person,,,and I cannot stand to lose at anything,,,I don't care if its a stick breaking competition,,,I very seldom,,almost never have any problems at Trap Clubs,,even with Hauser!!! WPT carries a rule book in his pocket at any shoot he attends,,,and he knows the damn thing front to back,,believe me when I tell you,,,He is not the least bit bothered to use it either!!! I have seen it many times,,But you know what??? He's right,,,and when it comes to those rules,,,I have yet to see ANYONE prove that man wrong!!! I am the same way,,,but differant!!

    I know the differance between fair play VS not so fair,,,,and I know that many times those rules were never meant to be interpreted the way they sometimes are,,,and I'm not talking about Arizona anymore than another state....

    I have never used another handle besides "Grammie",,and I have never deleted a post,,,I once apologized to a shooter from Penn. though....And I have at times signed my name,,,It does not matter to me who knows my name,,,By the way,,,My wife has posted a time or two,,,but she always signs it with her name....

    Hauser uses the handle "hauser",,,and I call him that,,or Jerry,,,Arizona Bozo uses his handle,,,and that is the way I address him,,even though I know who it is...Same with WPT,,and many others...

    But all that IS beside the point,,,,the cost of land in Arizona has reached the point that it is virtually impossible for a club to maintain its own life!!!

    And if it was me making the decisions,,,,I would have 5 years ago,,made a move on Casa Grande and made the place the ASTA homegrounds!!!!! Now thats what should have been done,,,And I didn't make any bones about it!!! Instead of funding another Grand American and giving away shotguns,,,I would have put that money to work for the good of the shooters in Arizona,,and secured a place for the future of Trapshooting!!!! But no!!! Whos going to listen to an asshole like me,,The good ole boys????

    AKA Grammie...........
     
  12. southpark

    southpark TS Member

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    Okay, then please disregard my post above.
     
  13. grammie

    grammie TS Member

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    Southpark:

    No,,you were absolutly right,,,,In this clubhouse I go by "Grammie",,,I just prefer not to sign my name all the time,,,,It does not give any post made anymore credibility than someone who signs their name,,,or vise versa,,,and yes,,,there are some real scumbags that are shooters who like to e-mail threats,,warnings,,But these are COWARDS,,Some of who I have met at shoots,,,they try to give the Black Ghetto stare,,,But they have NO guts,,,Most I would glady end their sorry lives for them if they had the balls to actually try anything,,,and "that" is what signing your name gets you and one of the major reasons I don't....And some will purposly name you,,,just to set you up for that!!!! But thank you anyway.....

    AKA Grammie.....
     
  14. Joe Woods

    Joe Woods Well-Known Member

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    Is the property in question for sale. In stead of talking lets buy it. I realize this is only one solution. But it is a solution.


    Joe Woods/Ontario
     
  15. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    The State of Arizona Officials know damn good and well how and what the shooters feel for the clubs in the state and probably get reminded often by those that really care ... The then Governor Jane Hull signed a range preservation act into law and if someome at the Tucson Trap and Skeet Club don't search and find the bill that it was attached to they are going to be over and done with ... The Club had better get the ball rolling or notification of the States Elected Officials will do no good because they won't know what its all about ... The problem with Tucson is much the same as the problem that existed when the Old Phoenix Trap and Skeet club was still standing and they were building houses around it faster than you could imagine ... The homes have voters and those voters far out number the shooters which is why the Politicians favor them and they get what they want ... This is urban sprawl and its going to eat up the Tucson club just like it did Phoenix unless the club gets to moving and tie them up in court for as long as possible ... Its going to be a costly endever and if the right Judge gets it they might have a chance to be around for a few more years ... I'd start looking for a place to relocate to while they are tied up in the court proceedings and put some numbers together just in case ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  16. awbenz

    awbenz TS Member

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    Maybe the Land should have been bought instead of new pat traps? Allen
     
  17. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I wouldn't bet on it but I think the land the club sits on is owned by the club, that won't make much difference once a bunch of low income home owners move in and start complaining about the noise ... They make it sound like they never knew the club was there and what the club did as a club and all they know is their little darlings cannot sleep with all of the noise ... They are saying low income houseing which means they will not only scream bloody murder, but they will demand peace and quiet as if they knew what it was then they lived in the "Projects" ... There is nothing good that can become of this because sooner or later they will be made to pull the plug and give it up, thats just the way it is ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  18. DJSims

    DJSims Member

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    Tucson Trap & Skeet Club update

    Re: April 3, 2007 Pima County Board of Supervisors Meeting.

    Agenda item 13 “Co7-06-16, Economic Development Authority of the Tohono O’Odham Nation-W. Old Ajo Hwy Plan Amendment”


    Lee Bachman, TT&SC President gave the presentation regarding our club history, current functions, and the need for shooting range protection laws.


    Michael Braegelmann, TT&SC Treasurer presented financial data, economic benefits to the community from our major shoot participants, and Planning & Zoning history pertaining to our club.


    Emily Blount, US Olympic Gold Medalist gave a personal message on the importance of our club in her development as an Olympic Competitor.


    Based upon a recommendation by Pima County Administrator, Chuck Huckelberry, this request to amend the Comprehensive Plan was sent back to the Pima County Planning & Zoning Staff for modification.


    The Board of Directors of the TT&SC would like to thank each person who contacted their County Supervisor in support of our club and in opposition to this proposed Comprehensive Plan amendment. We have the attention of the entire Pima County Board of Supervisors!


    We will remain involved in the Planning & Zoning Staff planning process and will notify you when to contact P&Z with your input and concerns. The Pima County P&Z Commissioners will seek public input during this review process.


    The Tucson Trap & Skeet Club’s Board of Directors official position is no residential development adjacent to our facility. High density residential housing is just not compatible and will lead to noise complaints, safety concerns, lighting complaints, lawsuits by adjacent homeowners, etc. We are not anti-growth! We would consider any compatible commercial, light industrial, manufacturing, self-storage or school bus parking-maintenance shop. In other words, a neighbor closed on weekends and evenings.


    We’ll continue to keep everyone updated.


    Thanks for your support,
     
  19. kolar12

    kolar12 Member

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    Doug, thanks for all of your hard work and also that of the rest of the board of directors! Gary
     
  20. Doug Sims

    Doug Sims TS Member

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    A) Tucson Trap and Skeet Club has not been sold. Tucson Trap and Skeet is a membership owned club, but cannot be sold to benefit any member. If ever sold, the money would be donated per articles of incorporation, or could be used for another facility.

    B) Arizona passed a shooting range noise protection act in about 2001, and if you establish a sound decibel perimiter, and do not increase the noise, you are grandfathered.

    If in the future a developer states that your noise is excessive, it becomes his responsibility to prove his claim by contracting with a laboratory to provide the readings (64 dBA at perimiter is max).

    If range still in compliance, it is the responsibility of the developer to install and provide noise barriers.

    Tucson Trap and Skeet Club contracted in 2001 to establish our baseline, and this was done during a Spring Grand, the highest use time for the shooting line. We have our part covered for noise.

    C) The adjacent property was purchased about a year ago for $1.5 million dollars for about 40 acres. The buyer knew what the comprehensive plan and zoning was, and rolled the dice. He then began to try to change the zoning. Maybe sometimes the dice come up snake eyes! He never approached the Tucson Club to discuss any plans.

    The flight path of Ryan Airfield is directly in the path of this questioned land, and homes are less than desired by the Airport Authority.

    D) The Arizona State Trapshooting Association has spent money to fund Zone Shoots and the Arizona State Trapshoot.

    The income to the state association every year is less than $60,000. The idea that ASTA could buy the Casa Grande club with this income stream is ludicrous! Target club operation still is a business, and Casa Grande has a new owner. We welcome Don Volz to the state, and look forward to supporting him as he works to make Casa Grande even better!


    Doug Sims
     
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