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TS MythBusters - No. 1 - Straight Rifling

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, Dec 2, 2008.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Brian from Oregon started a great thread on this topic. There are several sub threads there so I'm breaking out and asking a specific question:

    Has anybody patterned a rifled slug barrel to see if the pattern is thrown off the point of aim?

    But Joe, you say, you're going the wrong way on this.

    Yes I am, but quite intentionally to try to shed some light on the claim that straight rifled barrels keep spinning wads flying straight and you therefore get more consistent patterns in relation to your aim point. I believe the incidence of this to be quite low (caused by cocked wads) so straight rifling would act more like an insuruance policy against that one-in-a-thousand problem. If we can see what happens with an intentionally spun wad, we can know exactly what it is we're correcting with straight rifling.

    Anybody?

    Joe
     
  2. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    We often solve problems at work by causing an issue on a consistent basis. Then you have a strong lead towards the solution.

    Another approach would be to learn how to cause tipped wads in reloads, pattern them with and without straight rifling, and see... I don't know how to caused tipped wads in reloads. Maybe PBB can describe those Wolf shells for us.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    What about cutting a few spiral grooves on wads?

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Maybe after this one Joe, you could test the arrow in the .410 myth. I have a Canadian friend who swears that he's actually done it.

    Tron
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Joe, when I lived in Ohio (shotgun slug deer hunting only) I had an H&R fully rifled single with a good scope attached to the cantilever barrel. Great shooting slug gun too. When I shot a trapload of 7-1/2s through it on paper, it looked horrible! Much worse and more open than a cylinder bored barrel will pattern. I tried the same load with a 4 inch rifled tube on my B 303 and saw the same thing. Really no patterns to speak of!

    On the other thread, I asked a few questions concerning the measurements of the Hastings internal numbers trying to understand how they work and why. The only comparison note I saw was Mike said his .750? bored Seitz didn't handle the shells where the Hastings did. Couldn't that same thing be said for most any barrels of different bores and constrictions? Could that be why the Hastings barrel (constriction number/bore size?) worked better than the overbored Seitz? Mike, I'm not doubting what you say at all guy, I'd like to understand how that happens and why. If we're talking two entirely different bore diameters, I think I understand the whys if both are different.

    The WAA12L wad was mentioned there also as not patterning real well. I bought a case of these wads after shooting a few a friend had. I liked his loads with that wad for the first shot on doubles. Mine didn't do so well when I dropped the powder charge though. I think those long legged wads (all of them) need a higher chamber pressure to work well. At least that's what I experienced using mine.

    Hap
     
  6. DANNY

    DANNY Member

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    Briley must think the stright rifling helps. They offer it in their sub gauge tubes. One of the better skeet shooters at our club uses them and he said the only thing he could tell is that he now uses a more open choke then he did with the smooth bore tubes. I have a Briley diffuser choke for a Browning & the rifling in it has a twist in it. I have never patterned it, but when shooting it it does seem to thow a more open pattern than a cly. choke.
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Ok, so rifling throws the pattern out from a center line. Makes sense. I don't need to redo what Hap describes to see what the effect would be. I do like his idea of using the same barrel in tests except for straight rifling. Now what shell should be used? One that isn't right - to show the greatest benefit. Granted a tipped wad will be rare, but some guys want the assurance.

    I wish Mike had pictures of those wads. Mike, what wad was it?

    Briley would do well to publish their results.

    Thanks, Joe
     
  8. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    Jim at Briley told me that the straight rifling would put about 10 percent more shot into the pattern-- not a big deal on the 12 and 20 but huge on the 410
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I've ordered a Wadlock II which I will be able to compare, patternwise, with a non-rifled Hastings Leo Harrison III barrel I bought from Denny Steinhaus who is still kicking himself for selling, since we both agree is a unusually good shooter. In other words, there will be an answer to your question.

    Neil
     
  10. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Phil, I think 10% WOULD be a big deal in a 12ga. Did Jim at Briley offer any more details on this assertion? I have to be suspicious when the word "about" or "seemed to be" is used.
     
  11. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    He said that on average it put about 10% of the shot back into the pattern. It just dawned on me that I misspoke since the 12 gauge would not be part of the test. This gauge has no tubes it is the barrel itself.

    Anyway having corrected the 12 gauge screwup -- I do remember that Jim told me that on average the "ultimate ultralite" would put 11 pellets back into the effective pattern of the 410 at 20 yards. When we had the discussion and the reason for it was that I was trying to decide whether to get the ultimates or just to go with the standards.

    When I asked Todd he told me that he personally OEIGINALLY thought maybe that the rifling was a gimmick but, that when he switched to them he started getting more smoke in all gauges and that he "improved immediately" in the 410 which was the reason that Jim wanted him to switch to them.

    I am a horrible skeet shooter but I shoot the 410 in my Briley's much better than I did in another skeet gun that had standard Kolar's.

    If I had to buy skeet tubes again I would pay the extra to get the rifled ones.
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thanks for the info Phil. Didn't think of changing the bore to the 410 as another test option. Sounds conclusive.

    Neil - I don't know those barrels, but was hoping for two copies of the exact same tube, choke, inside dims, lenght, mfr, metal, etc. One with rifling, one without. How will you measure the results?
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, you don't have to have identical barrels at all. Just any good full choke should be a fair test against the rifled Wadlock II. Ten patterns, 40 yards, Federal Papers lot number 681 & and analyzed with Shotgun-insight, just like all the rest. Remember, that have been some very specific claims made for these barrels, not just here, but in the ads as well. They should be easy to check.

    Neil
     
  14. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    I'd say that as long as the aspect ratio or the bore to restriction was equal the test will be fair.

    I also wonder how a lighter choke will do. If the pattern improves, you could use a less constricted choke. While this isn't as beneficial in trap as it would be the sporting clays course.

    ec90t
     
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I look forward to your results, Neil. Maybe I'll follow up with a before/after on my 870 barrel.
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Neils results will be very interesting to see and read! Averages of velocity readings between the two types of barrels may prove interesting as well? I seriously doubt Hastings made a "special" run of barrels just for the "broached" rifled barrels for a different bore,ie, the "wadlock". Just a guess on my part but I'd guess the standard Hastings bore will be the top of the rifle lands. (Standard Hastings bored barrel) Broaching or rifling in the lows may allow the charge to traverse the length with less resistance? Similar to the claims made by the makers of the old Lage wads. They claimed the raised ridges on those wads allowed the mass to ride on those raised ribs for less resistance in it's trip down the barrel. If so, would that allow a slightly higher average velocity reading with the wadlock barrels? That is, if both barrels have the same choke constriction numbers. According to PBBs testing, the patterns he shot were more evenly distributed lacking the hot cores other barrels exhibit. I'll be interested to find out how that's achieved without increasing velocity with a higher powder charge. Hap
     
  17. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    "What about cutting a few spiral grooves on wads?"

    Pat Ireland



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy, I've always admired your skill with Photoshop®. I know it took a lot of work but I'll tell you, it almost looks real. Good work!

    Neil
     
  19. 3 wood

    3 wood TS Member

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    It doesn't matter what you do to the wad. 10'000psi presses the wad out to what ever the internal shape of the chamber and barrel are. You have to relate to ballistics dynamically rather than statically. The old style rifled slugs leave the muzzle the same diameter as the last part of the barrel they see. They look like a 38 wadcutter after they exit. The shotload acts more like a fluid leaving the hull and going down the barrel. In testing, you have to shoot at least 25rds. of each sample to determine a difference of 3%, and the barrels should be similar if not identical in bore and choke configuration---
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    3 wood, I'd say that's a not-unreasonable estimate of the number of patterns needed to show such a small difference but I'll check my records to see. It depends on variability, of course.

    But I can't understand why everyone thinks I have to match all the rest of the stuff. I'm not testing the idea of rifling, after all, I'm comparing the pellet count overall and interior vs outer pellet count of this Wadlock II with just a general good shooter. The question is whether it really is tighter (when it has about the same choke restriction) and if the core really is less hot when compared to a representative barrel without rifling.

    By the way, they are forged rather than broached, at least now they are.

    Neil
     
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