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Trigger Pull Dilema

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by fssberson, Mar 2, 2010.

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  1. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Well, this should generate some discussion. I "weighed" my trigger pull due to a flinch and it was 5.5 lbs. -- a little heavy, but very crisp. I have heard that lightening the trigger pull, to let's say 3 lbs., might help with solving the flinch problem. Other experts tell me to leave it alone as it will go off unexpectedly and be more of a problem. Any opinions?? Fred
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Fred- I know this sounds illogical, but many have found out that a heavier trigger seems to relieve some flinching and a light trigger increases flinching.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    That is what I was told by "my" guru. Fred
     
  4. high 2

    high 2 Member

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    Fred, you`ve got to get me and the used Spolar I`m looking for out of your head!!!!! ;)
     
  5. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Fred. Tyr a 3# trigger. But often the trigger flinch is cross fire. Is with me.
     
  6. Duck

    Duck Member

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    Fred,

    I had a TMX pull trigger worked on, It was probably 4 1/2# but gritty. It came back 2# potato chip crisp!. I short shot target's and started flinching walking forward right off the sidewalk. Borrowed a heavier trigger after a week off and life is good!. For me lighter was a major NO!.
     
  7. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

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    Have a good triggersmith adjust to a clean/crisp 4lb.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Fred- A bit off topic, but why, when you and I have a no fire do we stumble a couple of steps forward, nearly fall down and look so silly?

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    FSSBERSON I suggest you get a trigger pull gauge and check it yourself several times suggest 10 times on an empty shell and see if it is changing.

    If you shoot a Ljutic suggest you install a complete set of pins in the trigger, they go bad and usually corrects the problem.

    I could never pull a heavy trigger before I went to a release 40 years ago, the release was the best change I ever made. Now release triggers change too.

    The guy that could really tell this was Louie Morgan.

    The trigger has to fit what you want to shoot in your style of shooting and what you as an individual want and need. You have to find this out yourself w/o suggestions of others.

    I can only handle a release w/following ststs. 56Oz set and 28Oz release, I had to have my triggers set up this way. I had one that was 80oz set and 60 oz release, boy did that not work for me.

    The nice thing about a Seitz Trigger you can set it to these specs fairly easy.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. motordoctor

    motordoctor Shoji Tabuchi in Branson

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    Hello Fred--RELEASE TIME. I guess that old age is setting in really fast. motordoc
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    It is because you have several brain cells which are out of allignment. You need a thorough cleaning of your neuro pathways inorder to rid yourself of those bad habits. HMB
     
  12. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    I have measured my trigger pull with a gauge and it was 4.5 to 5.5. I took out the trigger assembly and cleaned it and re-oiled it. Some "stuff" came out when cleaning so maybe that was causing some intermittent hang up problems. We shall see today if a clean and well lubricated trigger makes a difference. Fred
     
  13. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    Fred I feel for you! I have the same problem with flinching. At times my gun just won't fire (maybe twice in 300 targets). I have isloated my problem to a vision issue. If I don't see the target just right, I jerk all over the map. I shoot a XT Browning with pull triggers that release at about 4#. As above suggests, I did try a light trigger on a Lutic and short shot at everything. I never knew when it was going to fire. I use light triggers on rifles, as low as 4oz and don't have problems. I have had three different guns that should have been better for me than the Browning and none work as well for me. I shot as many a 10,000 targets with two of these guns so I had time to make the change if it was going to work. An old skeet shooter gave me the best suggestion I have had. He said to "slap" the trigger instead of squeezing when I start flinching more that usual. I did - it worked.
    Try several things before you go to a release. Once there, you will never go back.
    Good luck
    Jim
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Flinching does not just go away on its own. It only gets worse until a change is made.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    I have posted this before but evidently it bears repeating:

    Jim Tyner

    "It just so happens that I got the following note late last week from a friend that he received from one of his friends. I did a couple of minor edits to protect their identities but the rest is presented as written. It's got nothing to do with flinching but it sure makes a strong case about release triggers.


    "Hey XXXXXXX,


    As you know, I took up Trapshooting a little more than 4 years ago using an old model 12 trap gun that was loaned to me by a friend. However, after I had demonstrated a commitment to the game, my father in law sent me an over/under. By chance, it had both release and pull dropout triggers. While I knew nothing about release triggers and had never flinched, I thought why not give it a try. One of the guys at the club where I shoot showed me how to use it. Bingo. Within a couple of rounds I was shooting better than I had ever shot before. I soon gave ATA a try. I liked it and within XX months I was shooting AA/27.
    I have watched the arguments about release triggers on TS.com for quite a while. I never felt qualified to jump in and participate because most of these arguments referred to flinching rather than just whether a release trigger is a better method of firing a trap gun. Because I had never had a problem with flinching, I do not understand anything about that problem. However, here is where it gets interesting. I have a very unique job. I am a team coordinator/referee/slave driver/mother hen for a team of exceptionally educated, experienced professionals representing a variety of engineering, medical, psychological and research disciplines. Our business is rocket science and brain surgery so to speak.


    We are all employed by a major aerospace firm and while some of what we do is highly classified, most of it is of a standard commercial nature. What we do is provide independent testing for human interface control systems to determine if those controls are designed in such a manner as to eliminate as much probability of human error as possible. Simply put, this might just be whether it is better for a two way toggle switch to have up as off and down as on or vice versa. However, think of the control array in a 737 cockpit, the space shuttle or a nuclear power plant and that is what people pay us a lot of money to test. We usually have about 10 people on a team and we bill at $8000-$10,000 per hour.


    About once a quarter we try to get the team out of the labs and into a more natural setting. I decided that a day at my trap club might be a lot of fun. I recruited a friend to help me with getting the guys to the line and shooting, and hopefully, hitting some targets. We had four trap guns, three with pull triggers and mine with the release. I was surprised at how easily some of the guys took to shooting the release. Afterwards, as we were sitting around enjoying chili dogs, the guys who used the release trigger started asking questions as to why my gun had a release and the other guns had pulled triggers. I gave the standard overview concerning flinching. However, these guys immediately were interested in whether a release trigger is a better human control interface for firing a trap gun. Much discussion ensued and everyone had a great time bringing their particular discipline to bear, but being research scientists no one would accept a resolution without specific testing.


    A couple of weeks later, we had cleared the decks for a large contract concerning a fire control system for a shipboard missile defense system. The package was to arrive on the appointed morning and we had completed constructing our testing protocols. However, as I was conducting what I thought was the final check list meeting, we were notified that their might be a delay in delivery. Somehow the conversation flowed back to the outing at the trap club and then the discussion about release triggers. About that time, we were notified that delivery would be delayed at least 24 hours. So here is all this high-priced talent with nothing to do so someone suggested why not apply our talents to a release trigger review. Needless to say, numerous bets were quickly made. Having previously received security clearance to bring my trap gun into the employee parking lot, I happened to have my gun in my trunk. A quick call to security and I and my trap gun were being escorted into the lab.


    Soon, we had several volunteers with wires attached from their trigger fingers, up their arms, on their spinal column and all over their heads. Others were studying the mechanical forces required and exerted by the two different triggers. Data was collected in the number crunching began. After a bit over five hours of research we had our answer.


    Our typical project results in a document that runs from 20 pages for something very simple to several hundred pages for multiple function control arrays. However, while these reports are very helpful for the design and manufacturing teams, we have devised a simple ratio to present so that non-technical management people can quickly appreciate the value propositions of one system versus another. To do this we assign the least desirable functionality a value of one. We then assign the better functionality a value of plus one. By example, if we have found that the up is the worst position for "on" for the toggle switch then we might say that having "off" is a 1.14 better choice. We call this the better alternative ratio.


    Because most of the products/systems that we test our very well designed with a lot of previous knowledge applied, our alternative ratio is usually fairly low. In fact, previously the highest alternative ratio that we have estimated for a manual control was a 2.67. Now, drumroll, the release trigger came back with a better alternative ratio compared to the pull trigger of 3.27 based upon a projected 100 repetitions in a 45 minute time frame. Quite frankly I was shocked at how big the difference was. Even though I had seen my shooting improve after getting the gun with the release trigger, there were lots of other variables that I am sure contributed to that progress.


    In summary, we produced a result that someone would have had to pay us about $45,000 to achieve. While I can't add anything to the discussion about flinching, I think I can categorically state that a release trigger provides a substantial biomechanical superiority to a pull trigger for shooting a trap gun.

    Of course, we all know that many of the best trapshooters successfully use pull triggers and achieve 99% plus results. We also know that the majority of release trigger users will never achieve 99% plus results. However, if I were going to train 100 qualified candidates that can fly fighter jets to shoot trap, every one of them would have a gun with a release trigger."
     
  16. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Fred: I fought the dreaded flinch for several years. It just got worse. When I was younger I used to kind of laugh when I saw a shooter flinch. Well I'm not laughing anymore. I spent a lot of $$ having my triggers set anywhere from 4.5# to 3 #. The flinch still was there. I am bull headed and my theory was "If I have to resort to a release trigger; I will quit shooting". Well a fellow shooter at my club talked to me and said if that was my feeling he had this advice. "Quit shooting"!! Well I swallowed my pride and went to a release. It was the best thing I ever did. It made shooting fun again. I had absolutely no problem adjusting to a release. However, adjusting to a double release was a different matter. It took a long time and I still "screw up" occasionally. Anyway; my $.02 worth. Good Luck. Ed
     
  17. eric

    eric TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    NHSC - very interesting article and I haven't seen it before. Thanks for posting.

    Eric
     
  18. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I'd love to see the test data.

    Maybe, just to be sure this was an honest story/research project. Hate to be a wet rag, but surely it can/could be made available.

    We did some things like this back in the 70's during idle time while working for the AEC in nuclear weapons research and some of their high-speed, I mean ULTRA high-speed photography equipment.

    Whiz White
     
  19. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I had my trigger pulls worked on by G. I asked for 3.5 and 3.75 lbs and zero take-up. I got 3.75 and 4, which wore to the requested 3.5 and 3.75 in less than 1,000 shots each. They stayed that way, or very close to that for another 2,500, then started dropping fast. I developed a flinch, and short shot.

    Sent the trigger to W. Asked for 3.5 lbs. Got it. Triggers wore to less than 3 lbs. in fewer than 200 shots. I short shot everything.

    Phil Kiner suggested I try a heavier pull. Sent the trigger to Kerry Allor asking for 4.75 and 5lbs (expecting it to drop quickly to 4.5 and 4.75), and zero take-up. I got back 4.75 and 5 lbs, because he "wore them in" to that weight before he sent them back. They are still the same after more than 2,500 shots.

    My flinch disappeared, and so did the short shooting. I will never, ever go back to under 4 lb trigger on a shotgun. I can't really explain it, but the heavier pull is confidence inspiring, plus it cured my flinch.

    Try borrowing a similar gun with a light trigger pull and see how you like it, before you spend all that money on a trigger job.
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    ZZT, you are getting your exercise at the same time as you shoot a hundred doubles. You are pulling almost 500 pounds of trigger pulls, accumulated of course. Well, 487.5 :) I use both a release and "good" pull triggers on my trap guns. I use the release when I get tired of weight lifting. Grinz

    Hap
     
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